Witness Testifies about Mass Killings at Wat O Trakuon

In today’s hearing in front of the ECCC, former palm tree climber and fisherman Seng Srun provided his testimony about the arrests and killings of 400 to 500 Cham people in his village and the surrounding working units. He testified that he was assigned to guard the Cham arrestees on their way to Wat O Trakuon pagoda, where he claims that they have been killed.

 

The Location

At the beginning of the session, the Trial Chamber Greffier Se Kulvuthy announced the presence of all parties with Nuon Chea following the proceedings from the holding cell. The President announced that today, the testimony of 2-TCW-880 would be heard, and witness 2-TCW-883 was on reserve.

Witness Seng Srun, born in January 1950 in Sambuor Meas Ka Village, Peam Chi Kang

Sub-District, Kang Meas District, Kampong Cham, is a rice farmer and father of seven children.

The first line of questioning was put forward by Deputy Co-Prosecutor Daly Lysak who asked what Zone, Sector or District Battalion 305 was part of. In his interview, Mr. Srun had stated that he had participated in Battalion 305 and fought in Kampong Thom, Pursat, and Phnom Penh, being in charge of 35 men. The witness replied that it was part of Zone 304 in Sector 30. In 1975, the name remained the same.

In 1976, the witness returned to his village Sambuor Meas, where he worked at various plantations and worksites. He was detained for a period of ten days before working in the mobile unit. He was not told the reasons for his arrest. Mr. Lysak then asked who was in charge of the militia who arrested him in Peam Chi Kang, to which the witness replied that these were Nam and Samret. After his detention in 1976, he was arranged to marry a woman and then assigned to work in a mobile unit.

His unit chief was Nauy. Mr. Lysak then asked what the difference of position of Hoeun and Nauy was. The witness replied that Hoeun[1] was a village chief.

Mr. Lysak then inquired about the Cham population in the district. Mr. Srun stated that many Cham lived in Sach Sau Village and Tong Sau. He estimated that  around 1,000 Cham people lived in Sach Sau. Eighty percent of these Cham fished, while 20% of them worked on the rice fields. There was a mosque in Sach Sau village and another one in another village in his district.

When returning to his village in 1976, the Cham people from Sach Sau had been sent to live with Khmer people. “They had been segregated to live with Khmer people.” Cham people in his village Sambau Meas were sent from Sach Sau. Around 20 families were from Sach Sau. He did not know the reason why the Cham people were segregated. In 1976, Cham people were prohibited from practicing their religion. They were not allowed to wear their traditional clothes and were required to wear the same clothes as Khmer people.

Mr. Lysak then turned to inquire about rebellions. Mr. Srun replied that in his commune, “They did not protest against Khmer Rouge”. Some of them were afraid of them. The compounds of the mosques were turned into shelters for Cham and Khmer people to live in there. They were also turned into warehouses to store food and rice. Cham people were not allowed to enter the mosque.

Mr. Lysak asked whether Mr. Srun lived close to Wat O Trakuon, which he confirmed. His house was located 200 away from the pagoda. His house was around 70 meters away from the road that led to the pagoda. Asked whether there were still mosques at that time when he returned to his village in 1976, he stated that the monks had been disrobed. After the monks had been disrobed, the pagoda was turned into a Security Center to detain people. Mr. Srun saw the transportation of people into the pagoda on a daily basis. Most people were transported into the compound of the pagoda, but not from the compound of the pagoda to another location.

After the Khmer Rouge created the Security Center, a barbed wire fence was installed. Prior to this, there was no wall or fence. From 1976 onwards, villagers were not allowed to walk close to the pagoda. Before this, they could see prisoners at the pagoda.

When people were taken to be killed, music was played from 7 pm to 10 pm. “No screaming, no crying was heard, because of the loud music played through the loud speakers.” He could hear the music from his house. The music was “from the Pol Pot time”, and it was “composed by the Pol Pot regime.”

Mr. Lysak then inquired how Mr Srun knew that people were killed when the music was being played. The witness replied that he was assigned to climb palm trees. A Security guard called Moeun, who was also assigned to climb palm trees, told him that the music was being played when prisoners were being executed. The music was not played on a daily basis. He was a climber from1976 to 1978 close to Wat O Trakuon. The palm trees were located around 20 meters away from the pagoda.

 

The Arrival of Southwest Zone Cadres

With regards to the arrival of Southwest Cadres, Mr. Srun stated that cadres from Zone 304 were responsible at first, before Southwest Zone cadres replaced North Zone cadres. A person called Khun was responsible for Wat O Trakuon. At the time, they were told that he was first transferred to another Security Center and then to an upper level office. Later he had been told that he was actually executed instead of having been promoted.

After the arrival of Southwest Zone cadres in 304 Zone, militia and chairmen had been arrested and killed. Those people who held positions before were all arrested and killed.

This prompted Mr. Lysak to read out an excerpt of the witness’s interview,[2] where Mr. Srun had talked about the arrival of Southwest Zone and the killing of North Zone cadres and that these were accused of belonging to the network of Koy Thuon. Mr. Lysak asked who told him that the North Zone cadres were accused of belonging to this network.

Mr. Srun replied that the persons Nam, Y and Kheng had been arrested. One day that he had been close to the pagoda he learned that Kheng had been killed in the compound of the pagoda. Kheng was hanging upside-down.

During the times that the previous cadres had been arrested, the Southwest cadres took control. Comrade Kan was the chief of Sector 30. Kan had overall supervision of Kang Meas District. His wife’s name was Pheap, who was his deputy. Another individual Khen came to replace the previous cadres who had been arrested and sent away. Some of the North Zone cadres were arrested in 1976, and by 1977, all had been arrested.

Mr. Lysak then requested the President’s leave to present S-21 lists[3] to establish the timing and see whether he knew some names. Mr. Koppe objected, stated that the witness “has nothing intelligent to say about S-21 records”, since he did not work in S-21 or the security. The Co-Prosecution could read out some names instead. The objection was overruled. The President stated that the reasons presented by the Co-Prosecutor were reasonable.

Mr. Lysak “List of persons from the North Zone 1 Feb 1977 to 27 March 1977” and directed the attention to the first name, which listed an individual called Chor Chhan alias Sreng from the Zone Standing Committee, who was recorded to have entered the prison on 18 February 1977. Mr. Srun replied that he knew a Sreng who was the chief of the Zone. He came to be in charge of the zone after the arrest of Ke Pauk.

Mr. Lysak then turned to the second list entitled “List of prisoners smashed on 8 July 1977 from the North Zone” which identified 173 prisoners who were killed at S-21 that day. Mr. Lysak asked about 103 on this list, Chhun alias Tang (equivalent to number 57 on the other list). Mr. Srun replied that he was a former Kang Meas district chief and transferred to Sector 41.

My. Lysak inquired whether the date of the list refreshed the witness’s memory about the date of the arrests having taken place early 1977 instead of during 1976. The witness stated that he did not know.

Mr. Lysak then turned to number 35 on the same list, and asked whether the witness knew someone called Chhoeun Ol, alias Meas. Mr. Sruy confirmed that he knew Meas, but not the name Chhoeun Ol. He was appointed to be in charge of security in Kang Meas district.

Next, Mr. Lysak inquired about a meeting after the arrival of the Southwest Zone cadres that was organized by the Sector Secretary and at which the Sector Secretary gave a speech. Mr. Srun stated that there was no meeting called by the Sector Secretary after the arrival of the Southwest Zone cadres, but that An, who was in charge of the Sector, called for a meeting. Kan was there, but he did not speak. An spoke about cadres in the North Zone and “accused them of being traitors.” According to Mr. Srun’s account, An further talked about the living conditions of the people. He “wanted to find out who forced people to eat thin gruel”. Moreover, he said that they “could eat whatever vegetables were grown”. An further said that the previous cadres had “betrayed Angkar”. However, according to Mr. Srun, they realized that it was lie. An had announced that if any chief did not give enough food to eat, they should make a complaint. At the end of the meeting, three people complained about unit chiefs who banned them from consuming their vegetables that they had planted. They were arrested by An’s cadres and sent to Wat O Trakuon the same day.

Mr. Lysak then referred to the interview of witness 2-TCW-883[4], who had stated that there was a meeting at Peam Stadium that all villagers had to attend. Mr. Lysak inquired what Peam Stadium was and where it was located. Peam Stadium was located opposite Peam Chi Kan school. Mr. Srun did not know about such a meeting.

The meeting that was held at Wat O Trakuon was held “right inside the temple” towards the Westside of the pagoda’s compound.

At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.

 

The Long Sword Unit

After the first break, Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyer took the floor and stated that they would only need five minutes, and that the Co-Prosecution could use the remaining time.

Mr. Lysak took up his line of questioning and inquired whether Mr. Srun knew the Long Sword unit and whether he remembered when this unit was established. The Long Sword group was formed in late 1976 or early 1977. It was established with a different role from the commune militia. When there was a plan for the arrest of people, in particular the New People, the Long Sword group would be deployed. When this group was present, a larger group of five people or more would be arrested and not only one to two individual.

The people who were arrested by the Long Sword group were brought to Wat O Trakuon. Mr. Lysak asked whether the witness had a brother in law who was one of the chiefs in the long term unit, which Mr. Srun confirmed. However, he had not married his older sister yet. During the regime, he did not have any contact with him.

Mr. Lysak then asked about the friend named Moeun, who sometimes would work as a Security guard and sometimes as a palm tree climber and inquired whether he had been part of the Long Sword group. Mr. Srun denied this. He was a security guard at Wat O Trakuon.

Mr. Lysak then inquired whether lists to identify Cham people were made. Mr. Srun stated that he did not see such a list at the time of the arrests, since he did not “have anything to do with the arrests”. However, he saw the Long Sword group heading somewhere and realized later that they arrested Cham.

Mr. Lysak then asked about the mobile unit chief named Nauy. Mr. Srun recounted that they had already identified Cha people in the mobile unit. They had a list of how many Cham people were working in the mobile unit. Mr. Lysak then asked how Cham people could be identified, since they were no longer allowed to wear their traditional clothes. Mr. Srun stated that “it was not a difficult thing to do.” The Khmer Rouge cadres could recognize this, since “they themselves were local people.” Moreover, they could be identified by their accent when speaking Khmer. “The real issue is that the cadres were the local people and actually had known the Cham people earlier.” Thus, there was no need to identify Cham people specifically.

Nauy, the unit chief, who was from the same village as the witness, showed Mr. Srun a list of Cham people, but did not tell him what they would “be going to do with those Cham people.” Nuoy received the instructions from the chief of the commune or district. No modern communication was used. Instead, they would use messengers.

Mr. Lysak asked how long after Mr. Srun had seen the list he was assigned to go with the Long Sword Unit to arrest the Cham. He saw the list while still working at the worksite. The arrest of the Cham took place around three to four months later.

Mr. Lysak then inquired whether Mr. Srun remembered in what year or month the Cham were arrested, which Mr. Srun could not. He said that, since he was still climbing palm trees, it might have happened in March or April: they stopped climbing the palm trees in April.

Mr. Lysak then turned to the arrest of Cham. Mr. Srun recounted that the palm tree group was assigned to go with the long sword group. At that time, he did not know what the assignment would be. When they reached the main road, he saw that Cham people were arrested. “I saw that a woman who was still taking a bath with her child was dragged to the pagoda.” The witness was assigned to guard those people. “I was warned that if any Cham people escaped, my life would be at risk.” The arrests occurred suddenly. They collected the Cham at the South part of the road. Some members of the Long Sword group were present to guard the group of Cham people. In Peam Chi Kang commune, Cham people lived in Village A and B. All Cham people, including children, had been arrested by the Long Sword group on that afternoon.

The people who were on the list that had previously been discussed were the Cham people who were arrested at the worksite. The arrest that the witness participated in was separate and conducted by the Long Sword group.

 

Arrests of Children and Women

With regards to children, they all had to follow their parents, but the targets were the husbands and wives. “Women were weak and not expected to resist.” On that day, there were around 400 to 500 Cham people who were arrested.

When Mr. Lysak referred to the witness’s record of interview, where Mr. Srun had stated that 300 Cham people were arrested, Nuon Chea Defense Counsel Victor Koppe interjected and stated that to his recollection, the witness had stated 200-300 Cham had been arrested. Both Mr. Lysak and Mr. Koppe referred to their respective sources for the given numbers.[5]

Mr. Lysak rephrased his question and asked the witness whether it was more 200-300 or 400-500 that Mr. Srun stated today. 200-300 were the Cham who had been arrested at the village. However, there were more Cham who were arrested at the worksite. Thus, it was higher and he estimated the total number to be around 400-500.

All Cham people were arrested throughout the day from 6 pm until 8 pm.

Before being assigned to climb palm trees, he had been assigned to fish. In this fishing group, there were two Cham people. After all Cham had been collected, they were instructed to walk to the pagoda. And I was assigned to walk behind them, while other members of the group were walking in front. Before they were instructed to go to the temple, each of them was beaten with a metal bar in order to alert them not to resist or rebel. The beating was only for men and not women. “The young children who could not climb up the stairs were pushed up the stairs, and “some of them stumbled and fell.” Moreover, “each man was beaten at the door to the temple.”

He also entered the temple where the Cham people were detained. The temple was used to detain prisoners. Inside the temples, he could not see the inside clearly. He could see, however, that prisoners were locked to a long bar that was attached to the iron rod. There were “a lot of prisoners within that temple” on that day.

Mr. Lysak requested leave to present photographs to the witness to identify.[6] The request was granted and the photographs shown to the witness and put on the screen. The first photograph[7] showed a pagoda, and the witness identified it as Mony Saravoan Pagoda (which was the official name of Wat O Trakuon). There was a person in front of the entrance. The witness could not identify that person, since the quality was not good enough, but said that might be himself.

The next photo showed a road.[8] The road that was presented looked like the road next to the primary school of Sambuor Meas Ka A. His house would be on the opposite side. The third picture[9] showed another pagoda, which the witness identified as Wat O Trakuon. Mr. Lysak then inquired whether the picture showed the same building as during the Khmer Rouge regime. Mr. Srun answered that the windows had been replaced. At that time, “the temple looked rather old. There was blood stain.” The size of the temple and the complex as shown in the picture was the same during the Khmer Rouge.

 

The killing of Cham

After having brought the Cham people to the pagoda, he was allowed to return home. When he got back home, the loud music was being played and “I could imagine that the Cham people were killed.” He asked Moeun the next day, who told him that all Cham had been killed until midnight. He further told Mr. Srun that “some young babies or children were smashed against the trees and legs were pulled apart and thrown into the pits. He told me that Cham people, all of them, had been killed.” There were 200-300 people put into the pagoda. Later during that night, more Cham people were brought. Normally, the music stopped playing at 9 or 10 pm. This “night was strange.” The music only stopped “a little bit before the cock-singing.” After the music had stopped for 30 minutes, “the cock was singing.” Thus, Mr. Srun concluded that the music must have been played until midnight. From the Cham people who had been arrested, to Mr. Srun’s understanding, “only two Cham people could survive and could flee the killing site. Three perhaps. One ran to the East Zone area. Later on, he was arrested. The two Cham people who fled and hid […] survived until today.”

Mr. Lysak then inquired whether Moeun told Mr. Srun where the Cham people had been killed that night. Mr. Srun replied that Cham people were killed in front of the pagoda. In the former regime, this was the mango or lemon plantation. There were puts by six meters or larger. One pit could fit 70 or 80 people. In a larger pit, “when I was climbing the palm tree, I could see there were five large pits.” The pits were to the North of the temple. There were two plantations close to each other. There were bamboo trees that were used as the border of the plantation.

After 1979, villagers and militiamen “went to dig the ground to find gold.” After 1979, he was assigned to be a village chief. He went to see people digging the pits. There were “four or five pits with the skulls and bones of the Cham people.” When the pits were dug up, he could see the traditional clothes of Cham people. He went to the pits after 1979. There were big and small bones. Thus, he assumed that the bigger pits were used to bury Cham people.

In the former regime before the Security Center had been established, there were no grave pits. There were also no remains of dead people at that time. “Only after the former regime fell, the private ownership was abolished so no one could possess the land area.”

This prompted Mr. Lysak to read out an excerpt of one of his interviews,[10] where Mr. Srun had stated that he had been told that the Cham were a different race and would revolt.

Mr. Srun clarified that “not only Cham people were smashed.” Also 17^th April People and those linked to “the former society” were smashed. “Cham people were smashed at the last stage.” He did not have access to all information at the time. New People were “pressed down and mistreated.” Moreover, “even the older cadres were also smashed and killed.”

At this point, Mr. Lysak requested time extension, which was granted by the President.

Mr. Lysak then referred to one of the witness’s interviews,[11] where the witness had stated that his uncle and wife were arrested and killed. Mr. Lyak inquired when this took place. Mr. Srun stated that the wife was Vietnamese. According to Mr. Srun, Vietnamese were expelled from the country under Lon Nol. However, since she was married and had children with her Khmer husband, she was allowed to stay. Under the Khmer Rouge, Chinese were referred to as the B-52 group.

In 1977, his uncle and his uncle’s wife were arrested together with eight of their nine children. The other child was hidden by other villagers. The arrest took place during the day and not at night. “They were inhumanely mistreated.” The children and the parents were transported to Wat O Trakuon pagoda. One of the children fell of the horse cards. He was tied and was dragged behind without anyone picking him up. “Everyone minded his own business.” This arrest took place before the arrest of the Cham people.

Mr. Lysak turned to his last question and asked whether the witness knew how many people were killed at Wat O Trakuon and how he was able to give this estimation. At this point, Mr. Koppe objected to the question, since the witness had said earlier that he had not witnessed killings and all killings the witness heard of were “hearsay through Moeun”. Mr. Lysak rephrased his question and asked whether prisoners’ lists had been found after the end of the regime. Mr. Srun replied that some people that 35,000 people might have been killed there. However, he said that this seemed to be excessive. From his estimation, the number was not as high. From his calculation, the number of people who were killed there, in accordance with the number of people who had lived there: less than 20,000, around 15,000.

The Lead Co-Lawyer for Civil Parties Pich Ang took the floor. Mr. Ang started his line of questioning by asking whether he knew the mobile unit chief Nauy, which Mr. Srun confirmed. However, he stated that he was a worksite mobile unit chief and not a mobile unit chief. He would be in charge of the worksite as long as the mobile unit was working there.

Mr. Ang then asked whether this person knew how to read and whether Mr. Srun read letters to him. Mr. Srun answered that “his knowledge was very limited” And Mr. Srun read and write for him. He never saw the list of Cham people.
Mr. Ang referred to the witness’s statement,[12] where the witness had talked about reading a letter from Pheap to Nauy that related to the “compilation of Cham”. Mr. Srun replied that he knew about the compilation of names of Cham people, but he never saw this letter. The person read the letter to Nauy and the instructions were to compile names of Cham men and women. The person who read the letter to Nauy was very close to him.

He married his wife in 1976. The marriage was forced. It was the first marriage that took place in Peam Chi Kang commune. There were 20 couples that day. The marriage did not take place in “an orderly manner”: there was a speech and they were given food. “They never asked whether I loved my wife.” Other couples did not consent to their marriage. In his case, however, his wife’s family side and his parents had thought agreement beforehand. He was arranged to marry on that particular day. Two or three couples consented to the marriage that day.

 

The sources of Mr. Srun’s knowledge

After the lunch break, the floor was given to Defense Counsel for Nuon Chea Victor Koppe.

Mr. Koppe started his examination of the witness by asking about Moeun, who had told the witness about the killings. Mr. Koppe asked whether it was correct that if Moeun had not told him, the witness would not have known that the Cham were killed. Mr. Lysak interjected and stated that this was a speculative question. The witness stated that he learned this “from the truth.” Moeun and he were “close friends” and they “knew each other for quite a long time at O Trakuon Pagoda. From what I heard, Moeun was engaging in the killings at the pagoda […] He in fact attended the killings.”And further, “he [Moeun] told me secretly.” As for other matters, he might have forgotten. He saw with his own eyes that small children could not climb up the stairs and were pushed into the temple. He learned about this information also from the cook in their village. The cook was close to his mother in law, since he was her godson[13]. “He would tell [her] secretly about what happened in the pagoda” sometimes. After the end of the regime in 1979, some people who had known the security guards at the pagoda confided in other villagers. Thus, the information of what he learned after 1979 corroborated the information that Moeun told him. The name of the cook was Ming. This person was the goddaughter in law of his mother in law. The cook told his mother in law not to tell other people. She “confided in his mother in law both during and after the regime.

Yad was another cook who might have known about what happened at Wat O Trakuon pagoda.

As a husband and wife, he has told his wife about the killings of the arrested Cham people. “I can vouch for this information that the Cham people had been killed during that night.” He learned from Moeun about the rapes of Cham women and New People. Mr. Koppe then pressed on and asked whether Mr. Srun told his wife the same day when Moeun had informed him about this incident. Mr. Srun answered that “usually I learned about the killing the next day.” He would tell his wife the same day.

Mr. Koppe asked whether his wife was still alive now, which the witness denied. She passed away in 1981. Mr. Koppe then asked whether Moeun also asked others or only the witness about the events. Mr. Srun answered that he did not know.

Mr. Koppe then turned to the number of people that had been killed. Mr. Srun replied that the official number was 35,000. “We human being, must tell the truth about what we have seen and heard.” He had been engaged in research. To his estimation, the number of people who were killed would be more around 20,000 people.

This prompted Mr. Koppe to read out an excerpt of one of the witness’s interviews[14]: “Moeun told me in 1978 that approximately 30,000 people had been killed at Wat O Trakuon” Mr. Srun replied that Moeun had never told him about the number. Pressed on this issue, Mr. Srun insisted that he did not discuss with Moeun the number of people who were killed in 1978.

Mr. Koppe then inquired whether Moeun had been involved in the killing of the Cham, which Mr. Srun confirmed. Mr. Koppe asked whether Mr. Moeun was therefore not a palm tree climber as stated by Mr. Srun. Mr. Srun confirmed this. Mr. Srun clarified that “everyone, including me, had different tasks to do.” Thus, he himself was sometimes assigned for fishing and sometimes assigned to climb the trees. Moeun was part of the Security guard unit. However, since he knew how to climb up the sugar palm trees, he was assigned to do so at night while being a security guard during the day.

Mr. Koppe pressed on and asked whether there was not a difference between security guards and someone who was “a killer.” Mr. Lysak objected and stated that this was a leading question. Mr. Koppe rephrased his question and asked whether Moeun “was also a killer”.

Mr. Srun recounted that “security guards were usually red, because they drank the wine with the gall bladder inside.” Moeun may have felt afraid of them, because “their eyes look rather red.” The witness confirmed that also Moeun’s “eyes looked rather red” when he told him “the things”.

Mr. Koppe then asked: “Do you remember whether Moeun was always drunk or only sometimes?” Mr. Srun replied that Moeun was not drunk, but that his eyes looked red and were different from the villagers’ eyes. Moeun secretly had offered Mr. Srun the wine that entailed human gall bladder.

The four members of the palm tree group were still alive today. Mr. Srun did not know whether Moeun spoke to the other members of palm climbing groups. However, the other members did not climb the trees around the pagoda. Mr. Srun was assigned to climb five palm trees around the compound of the pagoda. Moeun was assigned to climb a separate row of palm trees.

Mr. Koppe then inquired whether only Moeun was both a security guard and palm tree climber and whether other members of the groups had the same tasks. Mr. Lysak stated that Mr. Srun had not stated that the four members included Moeun, and that Mr. Koppe seemed to make this presumption. Mr. Koppe rephrased the question and asked whether Moeun was one of the four members of the palm tree climbing group, which the witness denied.

Mr. Srun explained that Moeun was normally worked at the security force. The four members of the palm tree group were a separate civilian group. Mr. Koppe then asked whether there were other palm tree climbing groups in addition to this four-men unit. Mr. Srun confirmed this, but stated that his village was divided into upper part and lower part. He was part of the lower part, and there was another group in the upper part. Their trees were around 500 meters from the trees his group climbed.

Mr. Koppe then asked whether the witness could explain why Moeun confided in him. Mr. Srun replied that where they worked, “no civilians were allowed to trespass the area”, which is why Moeun spoke to him. They climbed trees not far from each other. “Sometimes I wanted to know what was going on inside, and I asked him questions.” Since they were friends, Moeun did not mind answering questions. Asked by Mr. Koppe about a potential arrest of Moeun, Mr. Srun stated that Moeun had never been arrested. Ordinary members were not targets of the arrests.

Mr. Koppe then turned to the Long Sword group. The Long Sword group that was formed in 1977 was responsible for the arrests. The security guards were not responsible for arrests.

Mr. Koppe then asked whether Moeun had told Mr. Srun who participated in the killings.

Mr. Srun answered that there were many members involved in the killings. “Some members were young, namely 15 years old or 20 years old.” As for the executioner, they were actually competing amongst each other. If someone killed more than the others, they would be elected unit chiefs. He recounted that one time a 20 year old member killed 70 people in an hour. “That was the record.”

Those people who killed people “along the main road were pretty young” – when they carried guns, the gun nozzle would touch the ground. Of those who were member of the security guards, Mr. Srun could remember Moeun and Bot . The latter was killed by Horn, after Horn had “fell in love with the same woman” as Bot. After Koeun, the Secretary Chief was killed, Bot was killed.

Moeun had not given other names to Mr. Srun of those who killed people. Mr. Koppe then asked whether Moeun indicated any names of people who worked at A Trakuon Pagoda in general who are still alive today. Mr. Srun stated that he was unable to tell whether they were still alive today, since they all went back to their native villages. He did not know their names. Moreover, they used aliases during the regime.

 

Participation in the arrests

Mr. Koppe then turned to the next topic and asked why Mr. Srun was asked to participate in the arrests. Mr. Srun stated that he witnessed the arrests, but did not participate. He only guarded the Cham, since he was ordered to do so. He did not have a gun or a knife. He was not allowed to do so. He went along the main road. “We were wondering why were being asked to go with them to the main road”. Mr. Koppe pressed on and asked why the witness had been needed to guard them, if he did not have a weapon. The witness could not shed much light on the matter.

Mr. Koppe then asked what the role of the witness’s father was after 1979. “Was he involved in setting up the memorial site, the stupa?” Mr. Srun replied that he took care of schools and gathered the skeleton remains.

Mr. Koppe inquired which person had handcuffed the men of the Cham group during the arrest. Mr. Srun replied that he did not say that the Cham people were handcuffed. The prisoners were shackled at their ankles and the men were beaten once before entering the pagoda. Mr. Koppe then asked whether his understanding was correct that nobody was cuffed before entering the temple, which the witness confirmed. “They simply walked and followed them.”

Mr. Koppe asked to whether all men were beaten before they entered the pagoda, which the witness confirmed. Mr. Srun further stated that they were circled by security guards at the pagoda, which is why no one could escape. The people saw that the men were beaten, but “did not do anything.”

Mr. Koppe asked whether it was correct that if the children and women had decided not to follow the men, they would not have been arrested. Mr. Srun replied that the whole family was arrested when the men were arrested.

Mr. Koppe asked whether Mr. Srun was able to tell the Court one name of a Cham person who was arrested. Mr. Srun replied that he could do so, but many of them passed away. He gave the example of Chhou Man and Chin Rin Man, who were both fishers. Mr. Koppe asked the witness to describe one family to him. Mr. Srun gave the name of the husband Mok. He did not remember his wife’s name. Moreover, there was someone called Rin, who was the head of the family. Mr. Koppe then asked whether Mr. Srun saw Rin walking in this group. Mr. Srun replied that he had noticed Rin in the group. His house had been close to the witness’s house. Mr. Koppe asked whether Rin was accompanied by his wife and his children. “I have told you repeatedly that all family members would be arrested.” Mr. Koppe inquired whether Mr. Srun saw Rin being taken out of his house. Mr. Srun replied that he was assigned to climb up the sugar palm trees while Rin was arrested. “I did not realize that he was arrested and sent to the pagoda.” When he walked past him at the kitchen, he realized that he was taken to the pagoda.

 

Individuals who were arrested in the group

At the beginning of the last session, the floor was given to the defense team again. Mr. Koppe stated that he assumed that the Defense teams would receive an extra 20 minutes, but that he would need another 30 minutes on top of this. Thus, he requested an extension to 10 am in the morning. The President granted an additional 20 minutes.

“I believe we have a Mea Sokha/Say Sen situation”.  Mr. Koppe replied that he needed more time to examine this witness, since he seemed to be the only witness to a mass atrocity. Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel Anta Guissé stated that the defense teams needed additional time, but due to the health situation of her client, she requested the time extension to be granted for tomorrow morning.

Mr. Koppe asked about the arrest of Rin, who was one of the Cham people. He inquired whether he had understood it correctly that Mr. Srun was in the palm trees when Rin was arrested. Mr. Srun denied this and stated that he was near the house of Rin when he was arrested.

Rin was there from 6 pm to 8 pm. Mr. Koppe asked how these arrests took place. Mr. Srun replied that only those who were living near the main road were aware of the arrests.

Mr. Koppe then referred to one of Mr. Srun’s interviews,[15] where he had stated that he was leading the group with two other people in the back. The men were handcuffed. He then asked whether it was correct that Mr. Srun was involved in the arrests. Mr. Srun replied that as for the handcuffing, he had meant the shackles in the pagoda, and not during the arrests. Mr. Koppe asked whether the group of four palm tree climbers were in charge of leading the Cham to the Security Center. Mr. Srun replied that they were instructed to accompany different groups. He could not say whether he was with another climber or not, since there was no proper lighting. Asked to give more details, Mr. Srun replied that the duration between the pagoda and the location of the arrest was 341 meters. It took them around ten minutes to go there. After the collapse of the regime, the exact distance was measured. The Cham walked to the gathering points. The people in the worksite were put on horse carts and brought to the gathering points.

Mr. Koppe inquired whether Mr. Srun saw Mr. Rin only at the gathering point or at the arrest. Mr. Srun clarified that he had been reassigned to climb palm trees while Rin was a fisherman.

Mr. Koppe then inquired about the meeting that Mr. Srun heard An speak and asked whether it was correct that he had not heard him speak about Cham people. Mr. Srun replied that he did not mention Cham people, but spoke about the arrest of previous cadres. “Of course, Cham people also attended the meeting.” Mr. Koppe then asked whether An had given any explanation about the cadres that had been arrested. Mr. Srun replied that “they did not, of course, tell us the reasons for their arrests. We were ordinary citizens.” They gave the general reason that these people had betrayed Angkar.

Mr. Srun said that some people were afraid that Cham people would revolt and that this is why they were arrested. Mr. Koppe then inquired whether they were said to have been involved in the same revolt as the North Zone cadres. Mr. Srun replied that he did not know about any Cham being involved in arrests. Mr. Koppe then asked whether it was therefore correct that the witness did not know the reason for the arrest of the Cham. Mr. Srun replied that he did know the reason, just not on an individual level. “Pol Pot regime was a genocidal regime. Any other races would be considered an enemy. Including Chinese, Cham, and New People”

Mr. Srun had not heard about any rebellion on the other side of the river. Mr. Koppe inquired whether any of the Cham people who were arrested were living in one of the East Zone villages, such as Ampil or Koh Phal. Mr. Srun replied that to his knowledge, these Cham were the people who had been living there before.

Mr. Koppe then asked about the distance between Wat O Trakuon and Koh Phal, which the witness could not answer.

Mr. Koppe then inquired whether it was correct that Moeun had told him about having been involved in killings before February 1975. Mr. Lysak interjected and stated that he did not recall any such statement. Mr. Koppe insisted that he had read such a statement. Mr. Lysak asked whether maybe Mr. Koppe meant February 1977, which Mr. Koppe confirmed. He asked the witness whether Moeun had told him about killings that he was involved in before February 1977.

The witness replied that he was not aware of any incidents before February 1977 at Wat O Trakuon. “If the Cham had not been killed, where had they gone the next day?”

Mr. Srun replied that before Horn came to take responsibility, he was member of a security force unit.

With this, Mr. Koppe finished his line of questioning, stating that he would have had many more questions.

Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel Anta Guissé took the floor. She asked whether he remembered that the North Zone ever changed names during the Democratic Kampuchea regime. He replied that the name was not changed. However, he did not know whether the name was changed after 1979. He knew that it was within Zone 304 and Sector 30.

 

Arrest of Mr. Srun in 1976

Ms. Guissé then inquired about his statement that when he came back to Sach Sau in 1976 – after having served in the army – he had been arrested. Mr. Srun recounted that Samret Muy arrested him. He did not know Samret Muy’s position. However, “he was the one who was responsible for arresting.” He was involved in this task in 1974 and 1975. The people he arrested were killed at a lycée behind the pagoda. This lycée is called the Hun Sen Highschool now. Ms. Guissé then asked to clarify whether it was Samret Muy who arrested him, since he had said that he returned to his village only in 1976. Mr. Srun stated that his father held no position in 1976. In 1971 to 1975, he held a position as a district chief. He supervised villagers within his commune.

This prompted Ms. Guissé to refer to his interview.[16] He had stated that he was released in 1976 because of his father, who was the sangkat chief.

At this point, Mr. Lysak interjected. He stated that the English version read “formerly in this position”. Ms. Guissé stated that there had indeed been a translation issue, since the French version lacked the version “formerly”.

Ms. Guissé asked whether it was because of the former position of his father that he was released. Mr. Srun replied that “perhaps it is true.” The new cadres were living close to Mr. Srun’s house. “Perhaps my father had good relation to the new cadres.” Two others were also released. His father was replaced by someone called Run. This person passed away already. Later, Sreng came to control as a cadre. According to Mr. Srun, Run’s revolutionary name was Samrit.
As for security chiefs, the witness could recall that Samret Muy first heldthe position, then a person called Nam, until Nam was reassigned to be sector/security chief at Kho.[17] Asked for specification about the time period, Mr. Srun stated that he had referred to 1976. In early 1976 these people still held their positions. Then, Ta Pheng became one of the sangkat chiefs.

Ms. Guissé then inquired whether Nam and Muy were part of the Long Sword unit at some point. The witness answered that Muy’s group had different responsibility to the Long Sword group. He was not part of the Long Sword group. He was member of the commune militia. To the witness’s recollection, he held this position from 1973 until 1979, before he fled to Chamkar Leu. Ms. Guissé asked to clarify whether Mr. Srun saw Muy being part of the militia group until 1979, which the witness confirmed. He could recall Lav Chay, who was his brother in law, Tay Kim Horn, who was in the pagoda committee, Meng Ly, Heng Pha, Yeun, and an individual whose name he could not recall. In total, there were nine members.

The Long Sword group arrested the Cham group. Ms. Guissé asked whether these nine members were present, which the witness confirmed. One group was conducting the arrests at Village A, and the other at Sach Sau and another village. Ms. Guissé asked whether the group arrested people in the entire Peam Chi Kan commune. The witness replied that they would arrest people from the worksites. He confirmed that the Long Sword group was set up at the end of 1976 or beginning of 1977. The members were from Chi Kan commune. The Long Sword group did not exist before the arrival of the Southwest Zone group. Pheap represented the commune, and her husband Phan was in charge of the commune.

The President granted 20 extra minutes to the Khieu Samphan Defense team.

 

With this, the President adjourned the hearing. The testimony of Mr. Srun will continue tomorrow at 9 am.

 

 

[1] There was some confusion about the pronounciation: there are two individuals who are called Horn and Hoeun. It was not entirely clear in the English translation which individual the witness was referring to.

[2] E3/8736, answers 2-4

[3] E3/2956 and E3/3861

[4] Reserve witness for today. E3/9346 00235016 (KH) 00235508 (EN) 00283948 (FR)

[5] As for the number of 300 Cham who were arrested, see: E3/5252, at 00235021 (KH), 00235517 (EN), 00269892 (FR); for the number of 200-300 Cham who were arrested, see E3/5202, at 00210488 (EN), 00623191 (FR), 00635176 (KH).

[6] E3/2569; E3/2573; E3/2654 at 00211171

[7] E3/2569

[8] E3/2568

[9] E3/2654 at 00211171

[10] E3/5302, at 00635176 (KH), 00210488 (EN), 00623191 (FR).

[11]E3/1692 00218554-555 (KH) 00242088 (EN) 00337425-26 (FR)

[12] E3/5527, at 002188725 (KH), last page of the document.

[13] It became clear later during the testimony that this was in fact her goddaughter.

[14] E3/5032, at 00210489 (EN), 00635178 (KH), 00623192 (FR).

[15] E3/5302, at 00210488 (EN), 00623191 (FR), 00635176 (KH).

[16] E3/1692 00337424 (FR), 00242086 (EN), 00218552-53 (KH)

[17]This term was first translated as Sector and then as Security.