The Cham Segment Continues

In today’s hearing in front of the ECCC, Civil Party and alleged survivor of a mass killing Him Man continued his testimony, before Cham Civil Party No Satas commenced hers. Mr. Man provided more detail on the period of his escape and geography of the location where he was hiding. Ms. Satas testified how Cham people in her village were arrested, including family members, and how she survived when Khmer Rouge arrested and killed Cham people.

 

Clarifications of Him Man’s Testimony

At the beginning of the first session, the Trial Chamber Greffier confirmed the presence of all parties with Nuon Chea following the proceedings from the holding cell. The President then announced that the Chamber had received a submission from the Co-Prosecution to accept the disclosures of case 003 and 004 pursuant to rule 87(4). He stated that the Defense for Khieu Samphan wished to respond and gave the floor to them.

Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel Ms. Guissé clarified that she wanted to ask for a delay to answer to the request, not to answer to the submission in itself now. She argued that first, these documents came from investigations that are in process in cases 003 and 004. Thus, it was linked to the request made by the Khieu Samphan defense team E3/63. She therefore requested a delay until the Chamber had ruled on E3/63. Second, since this request concerned 26 statements, more time was needed.

Senior Assistant Prosecutor Vincent de Wilde answered that if this request was delayed, it would be too late to use these documents during this segment. In the meantime, he believed that the parties should use all relevant Written Records of Interviews that had been disclosed should be used even without a submission to put them on the case file, which the Khieu Samphan team and Nuon Chea team had done in the past. For the purpose of the establishment of the truth, parties had to be able to refer to the relevant passages.

Ms. Guissé answered that if these documents were as important to ascertain the truth as the Co-Prosecution alleged, the Co-Prosecution should have made this request earlier. Second, a distinction should be made between documents that had been disclosed and those that had been accepted on the case file. Third, the Co-Prosecution should provide references. The President stated that the submission made by the Khieu Samphan Defense Team would be considered and a decision would follow soon.

Next, the testimony of Civil Party Him Man continued. The floor was given to the defense team for Nuon Chea. Victor Koppe started his examination of the civil party by asking about events that took place in 1975 in Koh Phal. He referred to Ysa Osman, who had quoted Mr. Man.[1] In this interview, Mr. Man had stated that the rebellion was being crushed with marines and artillery. Mr. Koppe inquired who told him this. Mr. Man replied that he heard people talking about it. “The rumor spread amongst the villagers”. He could not recall who told him so. “I was busy working in order to survive.”

Mr. Koppe asked whether anyone had told him that it were district forces or forces from the Zone that intervened. Mr. Man replied that he heard them speaking about “the Khmer Rouge”, but did not know who they were referring to.

Mr. Koppe then asked about Mr. Man’s statement that he had heard a rumor that Cham were considered “Enemy Number 1” and wanted to know whether it was a rumor or “more than that.”[2] Mr. Man replied that he had heard villagers speaking about this and could not recall who said this. Mr. Koppe said that Ysa Osman cited Mr. Man that this had been announced. Mr. Koppe asked whether he understood it correctly that there had been no actual announcement that the Cham were “Enemy Number 1”, but that villagers were rather saying this amongst themselves. Mr. Man replied that the village chief Tam was also a Cham and held a meeting. Mr. Man was not present during the meeting. Tam had made the announcement and told him later.

Mr. Koppe asked why village chief Tam, who was himself a Cham, would announce that the Cham were Enemy Number 1. Mr. Man answered that he did not know why Cham people were the Number 1 Enemy.

Mr. Koppe turned to his next topic and inquired in what manner people were forced to eat pork against their will. Mr. Man answered that Cham people were forced to eat pork; religion was abolished. He then continued telling the Court how Cham people were prohibited to practice their religious traditions. There was no need to have guards at the kitchen. People were “eager to gain a favor” of the Khmer Rouge. Thus, Cham people would sometimes report on each other, for they wanted to seem loyal to the regime.

Mr. Koppe asked whether Mr. Man had witnessed a concrete occasion of when someone was forced to eat pork. He replied that if he refused to eat pork, “the bullet would be shot. I would be shot or beaten.” If they refused to eat pork, they would “risk [their] lives”. There were many fish, but they were never forced to eat these. Mr. Koppe asked whether it was therefore correct that Mr. Man had never witnessed someone being physically forced to eat pork, but that this was rather a general fear. Mr. Man confirmed this. “There was an announcement that if one refused eating pork, that person would be considered as opposing Angkar”.

Mr. Koppe then asked about 1977, and wanted to know whether the “second lunar month”, where Mr. Man had married his present wife was February 1977. Mr. Man could not recall this well. Mr. Koppe asked whether it was correct that he was married together with 50 other couples at Wat O Trakuon. Mr. Man confirmed this. They were forced to eat pork during the ceremony. There were also other Cham people in this marriage ceremony. His relatives were also there. Mr. Koppe asked whether Mr. Man knew how many people were Cham and how many people were Khmer. Mr. Man replied that he could not recall this. They were advised to become a Khmer nation. He did not know how “they paired me with my wife.” There was a Cham person who was “paired up with a Khmer girl”.

Mr. Koppe further asked where exactly this marriage took place. Mr. Man replied that the venue was located in the compound of Wat O Trakuon to the West behind the pagoda. Mr. Koppe asked whether Mr. Man could recall which route he took to reach the venue. Mr. Man could not remember. Mr. Koppe then asked whether Mr. Man was able to see the temple when entering the compound, to which Mr. Man replied that he never went into the temple and went directly to the tables where they were getting married. Mr. Koppe asked whether there were prisoners being kept in the compound of the pagoda at the time. Mr. Man replied that there was a rumor that Cham people were shackled within the compound of the pagoda. However, he did not enter the pagoda and did not witness it himself. Mr. Koppe further inquired whether Mr. Man recalled that there was a security parameter around the compound of the pagoda. The Civil Party replied that he did not dare to walk around and did not dare to enter the pagoda.

This prompted Mr. Koppe to read out an excerpt of Tay Kumhuon’s testimony[3]. This witness had stated that there was an additional restricted parameter of the pagoda that reached the river front, where people were not allowed to walk. Mr. Man replied that he was living in Sach Sau village at the time. He had heard about this restricted area, where no one dared to walk through. Mr. Koppe inquired about the exact measurements of the restricted area, to which the Civil Party replied: “I have no idea, Mr. Lawyer.”

Mr. Koppe moved on to the next topic and asked where exactly Mr. Man was hiding 100 meters away from the pagoda when allegedly hearing people being killed. Mr. Man replied that he was “to the East of the pits.” The distance of the pits and the place where he was hiding was about a 100 meters. Thus, he could hear the screaming. Pressed on by Mr. Koppe, Mr. Man said that there were small bushes where he was hiding and could hear the screaming “Oh Allah”. Mr. Koppe then asked for an estimation of the distance to the Mekong River. Mr. Man estimated that he was hiding about half a kilometer. The distance to the road at the eastside of the pagoda was around the same. The distance from the pond where he was hiding to the Mekong River Bank was around one kilometer. Mr. Koppe asked whether it was therefore correct that the pond was around 500 meters away from the pagoda. Mr. Koppe inquired whether this was the same pond as the one where the Civil Party had said that he was fired upon with heavy artillery. Mr. Man replied that the Khmer Rouge fired at the pond where he was hiding. He was hiding in the water in the pond the whole day. By night fall, they surrounded the pond, and the next morning villagers stormed the shallow parts of the pond. However, he was hiding under the water that day.

Mr. Koppe further asked whether other people were hiding there. Mr. Man replied that only he and his wife were hiding there.  Mr. Koppe then asked how Mr. Man knew that they fired M-79 and B-40 at him. Mr. Man replied that he did not see the bullets, but heard the loud noise of B-40 being fired. He could say that it was a B-40 and M-79 from the sound.  The sound of an AKA-47 was different from a B-40. Since he lived through war time, he could distinguish the sounds. Mr. Koppe asked whether it was correct that this heavy artillery was used to only get him and his wife out of the water. Mr. Man replied that he did not know the intentions of the Khmer Rouge, but knew that he and his wife were fired upon. Before the Khmer Rouge fired, he heard them saying that Cham people were Enemy Number 1.

Mr. Koppe said that Mr. Man had stated that he heard about Cham being the Enemy Number 1 in 1975 and that this event took place in 1979. He asked whether there was a connection between these two. Mr. Man replied that he could not recall the years.

At his point, the President interrupted the examination of the witness and conferred the hearing for a break.

 

Back to the Escape

At the beginning of the second session, the President announced that the Chamber granted the request by Defense Counsel of Khieu Samphan to delay the response for the Co-Prosecution’s request until the Chamber ruled upon E3/63. With regards to E370, oral submissions would be required and written submissions were not necessary. He then gave the floor to Nuon Chea defense counsel Nuon Chea.

Mr. Koppe inquired whether there pond where the Civil Party had been hiding was still there today. Mr. Man replied that this pond still remained until today. However, there were not as many water hyacinths today. Mr. Koppe then asked whether there was a small road immediately to the east side of the pagoda, which Mr. Man confirmed. He said that there were many small roads close to where he was hiding. Mr. Koppe asked whether this road was going to the North, then around the pond and then to the South again to the river. Mr. Man could not answer this question. Mr. Koppe pressed on and asked whether this road was going around the pagoda and back. Mr. de Wilde interjected and stated that in order to provide an objective element to understand the geographical area, documents on the case file should be referred to. Mr. Koppe explained that he was trying to understand where Mr. Man had been hiding. Mr. Koppe had been there a few days ago and wanted to ascertain whether the pond that was currently there was the pond that Mr. Man had hid in. The objection was upheld and Mr. Koppe instructed to rephrase his question.

Mr. Koppe asked whether there was a road today to the east side that led around the pond to the North side. Mr. Man replied that there is a new road today which reached the place where he was hiding. “You will not get lost by using those newly constructed road.” During that time, there were many small roads. The place where he was hiding was called “Tra Bah”. Mr. Koppe inquired how far away he was located from road 70. Mr. Man replied that he could not give a clear answer.

Mr. Koppe moved on and asked about Mr. Man’s statement that he had wanted to resist and had tried to find a mosque to find a weapon. He inquired what triggered Mr. Man to think that there might be weapons in the mosque. Mr. Man replied that he “was hiding in that place.” At that time, he wanted to find “any weapon that he could have to help myself.” Thus, he was searching weapons in different locations. However, he could find none. “I was hopeless finding no weapons. If I had found any weapons, I would have used them to help my people, my Cham people, my relatives, my villagers.” Mr. Koppe pushed on and inquired why Mr. Man thought that there might be weapons in the mosque. The Civil Party replied that there were guards at the mosque. “Because there were guards, I was thinking to myself, there were perhaps weapons” of the guards. He saw a guard lying in the mosque. Mr. Man was touching his head without the person being aware of this. The mosque was located in Ta Sau Village close to Peam Chi Kang.

Mr. Koppe referred to Mr. Man’s testimony,[4] where Mr. Man had stated that villagers had begged the Khmer Rouge to spare his life, since he had not been involved in any accused activities. Mr. Koppe inquired what this meant. Mr. Man replied that he could survive, since he was specialized in diving and was needed by them.

Mr. Koppe further inquired what Mr. Man meant when stating that “I am not a novelist. I am not here to create a story.” Mr. Man replied that what he had recounted was his experience and that he was there to testify. He might have forgotten some information, but it was not a creation or a novel created by him. Mr. Koppe asked whether villagers accused him of creating stories today, which the Civil Party denied. “It is the experience I came across. I am Him Man, and I went through the experience at the time.”

Mr. Koppe then referred to the Civil Party’s testimony.[5] At this time, the Co-Prosecution had inquired about the arrests in Sach Sau and other villages. To this, the Civil Party had replied that “So all of these persons might have died of labor”. Mr. Koppe inquired whether he implied that these Cham people were sent to work camps. Mr. Man replied that some villagers were sent to work at worksite and never returned. Only Ta Sos returned. Fifty percent of the villagers were sent to the worksite. When Mr. Koppe pressed on the issue, Mr. de Wilde interjected and stated that the question was not clear with regard to the time that this took place. A clear distinction had to be made. Mr. Koppe replied that Mr. Man had been rather clear and that it seemed that referring to a specific time was not helpful with this person. The objection was sustained and Mr. Koppe was instructed to refer to specific time periods. Mr. Koppe stated that the 1^st of January Dam was constructed in 1977. He rephrased his question and asked which time period Mr. Man had referred to when testifying that Cham people were arrested and sent to worksites where they died. Mr. Man answered that when he was taken to be killed, “the Cham people there were also taken to be killed.” He learned about this when he was taken to be killed. He said that believing that the people were killed were his personal conclusion, since no one returned. “That’s my personal opinion.” He said that Sos might knew how many people died. With this, Mr. Koppe finished his line of questioning.

 

Rebellion at Koh Phal

Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel Ms. Guissé started her examination. She asked about the time of 1975 and the Koh Phal rebellion. Ms. Guissé inquired whether he was in Krouch Chhmar District at the time that he heard about the rebellion. Mr. Man denied this and said that he was in Sach Sau in Peam Chi Kang district when he heard about the rebellion when working. Ms. Guissé asked whether the people who were “digging the earth” with him were Cham or Khmer. Mr. Man replied that they were both Cham and Khmer. They were being watched by the Khmer Rouge. He met no one from Koh Phal. He did not know about the reasons for Cham people being mistreated.

Ms. Guissé referred to Ysa Osman’s interview and asked whether Mr. Man had brought up the topic of the rebellion at Koh Phal with him, which the Civil Party confirmed. Mr. Man said that he briefly spoke about this point when Ysa Osman asked him about the events that happened at Koh Phal. One day, a person who was considered an imam was arrested by the Khmer Rouge. Then, “he used the imam to speak on the loudspeaker to instruct all the Cham living in the area – that is in Koh Phal area – to surrender and that they should not resist the Khmer Rouge. That was the reason behind the Cham’s defeat. Later on, I heard people say that Koh Phal later on was nicknamed Koh Peh […], the island of ashes.”

Ms. Guissé then asked whether he heard about other rebellions than the one at Koh Phal. Mr. Man replied that after having heard what happened, the situation came even worse.

Ms. Guissé said that he had stated that he could not remember when the Cham were scattered, but that he could remember the period that he was hiding in the pond. Mr. Man said that he recalled that this happened during the last year of the regime. Thus, it could have taken place in late 1978 or early 1979.

Ms. Guissé asked to confirm that Cham and Khmer people were wearing the same clothes in 1978 and that the Cham people were no longer wearing their traditional clothes at the time. Mr. Man replied that this was the case. They also had to cut their hair in the same way as the Khmer. Ms. Guissé then inquired whether when he was arrested, all the Cham who were arrested were dressed as Khmer. Mr. Man confirmed this. “At the time they said that there had to be only one nation in Kampuchea.” Ms. Guissé asked when he heard by whom that there had to be one nation. Mr. Man replied that he could not recall who said this, but that he heard people speaking about it when working. “From day to day, the situation became worse.” Some people prayed secretly at night time, but had to be careful so that the Khmer Rouge would not see it.

Ms. Guissé then inquired who his direct superior was at the time that he was arrested. Mr. Man replied that he could not recall this. He was assigned from one place to another. His direct superior was a Cham person, but he could not recall his name. The people who arrested him were the Khmer Rouge, but he did not know from which level they came.

This prompted Ms. Guissé to refer to the information letter relevant to his Civil Party application.[6] In this application, Mr. Man had said that the order to arrest came from the upper echelon. She then wanted to know who gave him this information. Mr. Man stated that he had heard that instructions were coming from the upper echelon during a meeting. However, they were never sure from which level it came. “We heard it all the time about the upper level, about the upper echelon.” Mr. Man then confirmed that he did not know the names of the people at the upper echelon. With this, Ms. Guissé finished her cross-examination.

Mr. Man was given the opportunity to make a statement relating to the harm and suffering he had experienced.

Mr. Man provided the following statement

At present, I’m still suffering from what happened during the regime. I lost all my hope since I lost many blood relatives and distant relatives as well as property, although I don’t want to talk about the property. I have lost all of my relatives and sometimes I think it is better for me to die rather than to live. Sometimes I think that I become psychotic. People may think that sometimes I’m crazy. Although it was fortunate that the saviors came to rescue us, otherwise we could have died. Everyone, including the Khmer people, would have died without the intervention of the saviors. I do not know what other descriptive statements I can make before your honors, since I myself am illiterate. I cannot provide you any detailed statement, besides the fact that I do not have any hope in my life. At the moment I don’t have any hope for my future. This is the result of the suffering that I received during the regime. As I said, all of my relatives, distant or blood, all died under the regime. And I do not have anything else to add to that statement. And I hope everybody knows what happened.

With this, the President thanked the Civil Party, wished him all the best, and dismissed him. He adjourned the hearing for the lunch break.

 

A new Testimony Begins: No Satas

After the break, the testimony of new Civil Party TCCP-270 began. Precedent to this the President had announced that tomorrow’s witness 2-TCW-928 had cancelled due to health problems. Instead, 2-TCW-845 would be heard.

No Satas, 57 years old, was born in Svay Khleang Village, Krouch Chhmar District, Kampong Cham Province (nowadays Tbong Khmun province). The floor was granted to the Civil Party lawyers.

Civil Party Co-Lawyer Lor Chunthy, from Legal Aid of Cambodia, started his line of questioning by asking where Ms. Satas lived before the Khmer Rouge took power. Ms. Satas answered that she was living in Svay Khleang, which was a Cham village at the time. In 1975, they were allowed to practice their religion. In late 1975, religion was abolished. In 1975, Cham people were evacuated. She did not have a father at the time, so she was sent to Prachheh. They were staying in Krouch Chhmar Ly first, where they were detained, before being sent to Prachheh. Her father had been arrested then. She was detained in the warehouse at Krouch Chhmar Ly. Her family was detained in a medicine warehouse, together with 200 or 300 people. She was detained for one month and three days. There was no medicine or treatment when they were sick. Her father had already been detained when they were evacuated. Some of her neighbors disappeared and never returned, while others came back. Her father never returned.

People were detained within that medicine warehouse or a tobacco kiln to “find out who the enemies were.” Further, “they wanted to see whether we would rebel at the time.” Asked about the rebellion, she stated that it took place in Svay Khleang. After they had been defeated, they were evacuated. If they had refused to leave, they would have been killed. At the time, she was around 17 years old. She was amongst those who were at the rebellion. She did not know whether the Cham people were divided into a group. She only knew that those who were linked to the rebellion were taken away.

The rebellion started at around 7 pm and continued the day after. The day after, at 7 pm, the rebellion had been defeated and they were evacuated out of Svay Khleang village.

Mr. Chunthy then inquired where Khsach Prachheh Leu was located. She said that she was sent there to be detained. She stayed there until the arrival of the Southwest Zone cadres for around two years. Upon their arrival, the situation became worse. “People were taken away and killed without discrimination.” There was a meeting once every month. They were told not to speak the Cham language. They were not allowed to pray. There would be one Khmer person with two Cham people. The food situation was good at the beginning, but mid-regime the food situation was becoming worse. Those who did not follow instructions “would be considered enemies.” If they continued worshipping, they would be considered enemies “and taken away.”

Later, she was sent to work in a mobile unit. During the dry season, she was sent to Bang Krauch Chak to construct a dam. They had to carry three cubic meters per day. At the beginning, they were given rather thick gruel with salt. However, the gruel became more watery later. She stated that she became exhausted and had dysentery one night. She was sent to the hospital, where she spent ten days. She was not fully recovered then, but was afraid to stay longer. Her relatives “were not that lucky” and did not survive.

When asked by Mr. Chunthy, Ms. Satas confirmed that she was forced to eat pork. However, she could not do so and ate salt with gruel instead. Her mother was tasked to raise three pigs. “She was so afraid of raising pigs, she became sick.” Instead, she prepared the food and gave it to someone else to feed the pig. If she had refused to take care of the pigs, she would have been considered an enemy.

Mr. Chunthy then inquired whether she was assigned to “dig canals somewhere”. She confirmed this and stated that she was assigned to work at Tyk Chruy in the second year. They had to sleep on graves when they arrived. In the morning, they were asked to build a shelter. They had to stay there for two months. When it rained, the water reached her thighs. There were many leeches. Nevertheless, they had to dig the canal that was six meters wide and two meters deep. Mr. Chunthy asked for more details about the accommodation. Ms. Satas stated that they slept in a shelter. However, there were holes in this construction, so it was not waterproof.

Mr. Chunthy moved on and inquired about her time at Khsach Prachheh Leu. She stated that upon her return, she was assigned to work at a canal after three days. This was the time that the Khmer Rouge were fighting with the White Khmer. There was no meeting, since the situation was “rather chaotic” due to the fire exchange. After “a fortnight”, the Khmer Rouge assembled the Cham people and told them they would be relocated. Her mother, younger siblings and cousins, along with other villages, were sent to Stung Trong. She was sent to Khsach Prachheh Leu. In the center of Khsach Prachheh Leu village, she was sent to live in Trea Village. After she had left, she was told that her mother and other people were put on a big ferry and sent to Stung Trong village at the other side of the river. All people on board of this ferry were Cham. The family members besides herself included her younger brother, her mother, her three younger sisters and her grandmother.

 

Arrests at Trea Village

Mr. Chunthy then inquired about her relocation to Trea Village. He asked how long it took her to go there and how she went there. She stated that they departed at 1 pm and arrived in Trea Village at 6 pm or 7 pm. It was raining. They did not have any food to eat. They rested in that house. She could hear people being shackled in houses. Around four to five people were shackled in every house. One day, the district chief instructed the Khmer Rouge to tie them up and place them in a long line. There were around 300 people all together. After they were line up, they were asked whether they were Cham or Khmer. If someone answered that he or she was Cham, he or she would be escorted with an armed person, who had a knife or a weapon. When they questioned her, she answered that she was Khmer. They asked her whether she was of Chinese or Vietnamese descent. After a while they believed her that she was Khmer. They were around 30 people left. In the morning, they brought them food. It was only one pot of soup and one pot of gruel for all of them. One soldier told them not to be scared anymore.

The whole group consisted of women. They were escorted by soldiers. At Trea Village, after they took away all Cham people, they untied them and asked them to write their biographies again the next morning. She was asked about her families. She said she was called No Cheng Ang. When they saw her earrings, they asked her to give them. Since then, she does not wear any earrings anymore since that day, to remind her of that day and “so that my children know what happened to me.”

Mr. Chunthy then inquired how many women were left after the questioning session ended. She replied that there were around 30 people who remained. There are only a few who remain in the same village. One day, she was forced to eat pork to make them believe that she was not a Cham person. Next, they were assigned to work in various parts in Trea Village. She was assigned to dig earth. They were told that they were assigned to dig toilets. These pits were half a meter wide and two meters long. One night at 10 pm, someone whispered that they were digging their own graves and should flee. She was told that there were boats with which they could flee. The next day, she was granted permission to go and bring clothes, which was granted. The rest of the group were waiting for them at Khsach Prachheh Leu. They left around 3.30 pm and arrived around 4.30 pm. When leaving the boat, they went into the forest. They were searching for them for three days. Other women who did not dare to flee remained in the village. The soldiers did not do anything to them.

 

Dead Corpses in the River

Mr. Chunthy interrupted the Civil Party and asked whether she encountered any specific event while working along the riverbank in the village. Ms. Satas confirmed this and stated that there were many people being killed, including tied up children who floated in the river. She recognized one of the men who floated in the river. The corpses did not flow with the current but floated in circles. The person she recognized was called Tho.

Mr. Chunthy inquired about the dead children who were floating in bags in the river. Ms. Satas replied that since the corpses were swollen, the bags were broken, which is why she could see the dead corpses. However, she never saw the killing.

Mr. Chunthy then asked how she could identify that some of the corpses were soldiers. Ms. Satas replied that she could recognize them because of their uniform. They were soldiers from the East Zone. Their uniform was a military uniform of a khaki color. Mr. Chunthy then inquired whether she noticed that all throats were cut, since she had said that she saw throats that were cut. She replied that she noticed that Tho’s throat was cut. She did know about the other dead corpses.

Mr. Chunthy further asked where she went to live after having seen the dead bodies in the river. She answered that before this incident, she was working Trea Village. Three days later, she ran into the forest. She was living in the forest where they fired at her and her group. They searched for them once or twice a day. She had a scar from an injury on her calf.

Mr. Chunthy sought further detail about the sound of shackled people that she heard at Trea Village. Ms. Satas replied that people were detained in this village. The reason she said that she was Khmer was that if she had not said that she was Khmer, she would have been killed. Cham people were taken away and killed. She thought that she would be killed at night.

Mr. Chunthy then asked whether she returned to her birth village after the end of the regime. Ms. Satas replied that she first lived at Suong. After a month, she sought the permission to return to her birth village. After three days of walking and when reaching her birth village, she did not see any of her relatives. She asked neighbors whether they had seen her relatives, which they denied. “Sometimes I have to go to the field and cry and shout loudly to relieve myself.[…] I am singing and shouting to relieve myself. People sometimes ask me why I am shouting and crying.” After her arrival in her birth village, she got married. After time, she felt more relieved, but could not forget the harm she had suffered.

Mr. Chunthy turned to his last question by inquiring about the villagers who had been evacuated out of her village and asking whether she saw these villagers again. She replied that her mother and younger siblings disappeared. Those who were working and living together with her disappeared. At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.

 

Back to the Arrest

At the beginning of the last session, the floor was granted to Civil Party Lead-Co Lawyers, who gave the floor to the Co-Prosecutors. National Deputy Co-Prosecutor Srea Rattanak started the examination of the Civil Party by asking about the time that Ms. Satas arrived in Trea village and assigned to live in a house. Ms Satas said that upon her arrival, the house was empty. She saw earrings and jewelry scattered on the floor. All women who came with her were placed in the same house. Mr. Rattanak then wanted to know how she knew the district chief who questioned her. She replied that Ho was the chief of the district from the other side of the river. The deputy was Pay and the member of the committee Chim. Mr. Rattanak sought clarification how she knew that he was the district chief when he questioned her. She replied that soldiers told her so.

Turning to the next topic, Mr. Rattanak wanted to know how many people answered that they were Cham. She replied that there were around 300 women in the house. Other women who came from her village also responded that they were Khmer. After saying that they were Khmer, around 30 women remained. After the interrogation, they were under constant monitoring. Someone had pity with them and said that they were children of Khmer people and mistaken for Cham people. Mr. Rattanak then asked whether of these thirty people, some people were subsequently identified as Cham, which Ms. Satas denied. They were allowed to stay in the house if they said that they were Khmer. Those who said that they were Cham were taken out of the house. Ms. Satas saw people who carried an AK-47 and some were carrying knives. These armed people took the Cham away, who disappeared ever since.

He then referred to her interview, in which Ms. Satas had said that she saw women with headscarves being walked to the riverfront, where they were killed by cutting their throats. In this document, she had described the killing of Cham women whose throats were cut.[7] In another document, she had said that she saw it with her own eyes that the throats were slashed.[8] However, in document E3/5913[9] she had said that she herself had not witnessed the killing but that a person had told her about it. She had stated that she said so because she wanted to seek justice. Ms. Satas replied that her main purpose was to seek justice. She said that what she had said before the Court was the truth and what she witnessed. As for the slashing of the throats, she clarified that she saw the person Tho, a former chief of a women group, floating in the river with the throat cut.

Mr. Rattanak pressed on and asked whether she wanted justice and that this was why she made the amendment before the investigators. She insisted that she was before the Court to seek justice. With this, he handed over the floor to International Assistant Prosecutor Joseph Andrew Boyle.

Mr. Boyle asked to confirm that around 270 women were taken away that night. Ms. Satas confirmed this. Mr. Boyle then asked whether the district chief Ho was present at the time that she was forced to eat pork, which Ms. Satas confirmed. Mr. Boyle then asked whether she talked in Khmer or Cham language with the other 30 women who said that they were Khmer. She answered that they spoke Khmer until the end of the regime. This prompted Mr. Boyle to ask whether some of them spoke with an accent that might reveal their Cham identity. Ms. Satas said that they did not have any accent and that the Khmer Rouge did not pay much attention to accents.

Mr. Boyle then inquired whether she knew what happened to the men that were shackled in the houses in Trea Village. She replied that she saw a few being taken away, but did not know what happened to them.

Mr. Boyle referred to her Civil Party application,[10] where it was stated that they were taken away on motorboat. She said that she could not recall having said this. She only saw that after a few days, these men had disappeared.

Mr. Boyle further asked whether she could get an estimate how many Cham people lived in Svay Khleang Village. She replied that there were thousands of families living there, but she did not know how many. There were two mosques in Svay Khleang. After 1975, the mosques were deserted and ruined. When she returned, these mosques had been destroyed. New mosques were built after the end of the regime. She said that “perhaps the Khmer Rouge” ruined these mosques. Before 1975, the Khmer Rouge intended to abolish the religion. Qur’ans were collected. As for clothing, they only had black shirts and trousers and were not allowed to wear their traditional clothes. They were told to wear these Khmer clothes from 1975 or 1976 onwards. They had to throw the clothes away. Cham women were not allowed to have long hair. Angkar instructed them. There were meetings in which commune chiefs and village chiefs were present. If villagers had not followed instructions given in these meetings, they would be considered enemies.

She confirmed that there were hakims in their commune. However, from 1975, there were no hakims anymore. She said that “Cham traditions, customs, culture were abolished.” If they dared to assemble in a group of more than three people without a Khmer person being present, they would also have been considered enemies.

 

Evacuation

Mr. Boyle then inquired whether she was being told why she was evacuated, which Ms. Satas denied. She said that this might have been because of the rebellion. Thirty of forty people were collected and placed in detention. Krouch Chhmar Security Center was the place where they detained the arrested Cham people. They were accused of being CIA agents or enemies. Those Cham people, who had been arrested, never returned. Only one or two people returned. These people were allowed to stay for one or two months and then had to return.

They were informed to leave over the loudspeakers. They fired bullets at the Cham people. If someone opposed an instruction, they would be shot dead.

Mr. Boyle then asked what had happened to her father. Ms. Satas replied that he was detained and taken away, but did not know what happened to him afterwards. Many people, in particular male youths, were with him.

Mr. Boyle then asked whether there were arrests during the time that she was held at the kiln. Ms. Satas replied that they were sent to the tobacco kiln. Pregnant women, children and babies were also detained there. While being detained, they were searching for enemies. Widows were sent to live along the river in Krouch Chhmar District. Pressed on by Mr. Boyle on whether she had seen anyone being arrested while she was being held at the kiln, Ms. Satas could not shed much light on this matter.

Mr. Boyle then inquired about the time at Khsach Prachheh Leu and asked whether cadres from the Southwest Zone arrive there. She replied that in the beginning, the Southwest Zone cadres had not arrived yet. In 1976 and 1977, they arrived and gathered Cham people. When being at Khsach Prachheh Leu, she was assigned to work in a cooperative digging a channel. In the dry season, she was reassigned to build a dam at Krachhea. In the second year, she was relocated to Bang Krauch Chak, after which she was sent to Tyk Chruy. She continued describing the working conditions.

Mr. Boyle stressed that he was asking about the time of the arrival of the Southwest Zone cadres in Khsach Prachheh Leu and asked when these arrived. She replied that there were many of them. She did not know when they came. She could recall that upon their arrival, they “had bad treatments on people”. If someone committed a minor mistake, this person would disappear. They were told to relocate at Stung Trong. People who were sent to Stung Trong never returned. When asked how Southwest cadres determined who was Cham, she stated that the Southwest cadres ordered the village chiefs to identify who was Cham and who not. The list would be send to the Southwest cadres.

Mr. Boyle further inquired what happened to the male Cham people after these lists had been made. Ms. Satas replied that all of the Cham people, including the male people, had been collected and sent away. Male Cham were the first group to be collected. They said that male Cham had to build shelter for female Cham. Male Cham people would be collected around a day of the collection of female Cham, for example.

Mr. Boyle asked how the collection of female Cham at Khsach Prachheh Leu took place. She replied that they were called to a meeting, where they were called to relocate to another village. These Cham women were put on boats and ferries. When they reached Stung Trong, they were told to get off. One ferry could hold around 200 to 300 people. Ms. Satas had heard that male and female Cham had been collected in other villages. However, they were not allowed to enter any other place, unless they were ordered to go there. She did not have any means of communication with other villages. Mr. Boyle clarified that he had asked whether there were relatives amongst the group that were gathered in Khsach Prachheh Leu, which Ms. Satas confirmed. Her two younger siblings, her grandmother, and her mother were gathered and sent away together with other villagers. She never saw them again. With this, Mr. Boyle concluded his line of questioning.

The President adjourned the hearing. The hearing will be resumed on September 29 2015 at 9 am.

 

[1] E3/9336, at 00218503 (EN), 00286655 (FR), 00218496 (KH).

[2] E3/9336, at 00218503 (EN) 00286655 (FR) 00218496 (KH). This corresponds to p. 153 in English.

[3] 16^th September 2015, at 14:32

[4] September 17 2015, at 14:55.

[5] September 17 2015, at 14:49.

[6] Document number not mentioned, at 0041865 (EN) 00369053 (KH), no French translation.

[7]E3/9333, at 00204450 (KH), 00204453 (EN), 00224416 (FR).

[8] E305/13.2.3.23

[9]E3/5913, At 00204445 (KH), 00274704 (EN) 00224113 (FR).

[10] E3/4705, at 00417852 (EN), 00369026 (KH), 00932677-78 (FR).