Back to the Cham Segment with Hun Sen Bodyguard

Today, Cham witness Van Mat gave testimony about the treatment of the Cham and purges of East Zone cadres. He told the Court about a meeting between Ke Pauk and communal cadres that he said he overheard, during which Ke Pauk allegedly talked about purges. He then recounted how he and other people escaped when they were loaded on boats and sent to Steung Trang and then prevented cadres from assembling and evacuating more people by attacking them with weapons they found in a well.

 

 

Religious Oppression

At the beginning of the session, the President Nil Nonn announced that 2-TCW-893 would be heard today in relation to the treatment of the Cham. The Trial Chamber Greffier then confirmed the presence of all parties, with Nuon Chea following the hearing from the holding cell.

The witness Van Mat, his birth name being Salas Ahmat and also known as Mat Thout, was born on 19 November 1953 in Chumnik Commune, Krouch Chhmar District in Kampong Chang Province. He currently lives in Kratie Provincial Town. He is a bodyguard of Samdech Hun Sen. The Trial Chamber Greffier then swore him in. Next, the floor was granted to the Co-Prosecutors.

Senior Assistant Prosecutor Travis Farr commenced his line of questioning by stating that he had a 2011 interview by the OCIJ of the witness and said that the witness should have a chance to review this document.[1] The witness confirmed that he had read only one document before. The document would be presented to him during the first break.

Mr. Farr inquired about his village Chumnik Village and asked where it was located. He answered that it was in Chumnik Commune in Krouch Chhmar District close to the south of the Mekong River. It was located around ten kilometers away from Koh Phal and more than twenty kilometers away from Svay Khleang. It was located around nine kilometers away from Svay Damnak Pagoda.

Before the Khmer Rouge arrived, half of the population in his village were Khmer and the other half were Cham. He estimated that there were around 10,000 villagers in the village. After Pol Pot came to control the country, he said, all hajis and tuon had been taken away and killed. They did live in the village before.

Mr. Farr referred to his first interview and asked what Mr. Mat was studying at the Muslim mosque and how old he was then.[2] Mr. Mat replied that he studied the Muslim language and was around 17 years old. He studied religious subjects and no other subjects. His teacher was Thyk. After the Khmer Rouge came into the country, they were not allowed to study anymore. He had no particular education after his studies and was asked to herd cattle when the Khmer Rouge arrived.

The conditions became “even worse” in 1976. They were prohibited from practicing their religion and were evacuated to live in Battambang Province in 1976. They were prohibited from practicing their religion, not allowed to use their language, forced to cut their hair short and told to eat pork, the witness recounted. All Qur’ans had been collected and burned. The mosque had been transformed into a place to keep cattle or cows.

Turning to his next topic, Mr. Farr inquired whether he was aware of the rebellions that took place in Svay Khleang and Koh Phal in 1976. He answered that he had heard about the rebellion, but did not know much about it. Villagers were confined to staying in their village and were not allowed to trespass into other villagers.

Most of the religious leaders and intellectuals had been arrested before the rebellion already and had been accused of being traitors or CIA agents. They had been sent to a security center in Krouch Chhmar District and never returned. That building was dismantled, but to his recollection, it was located in Khsach Prachhes. They had said that Angkar had arrested these people.

He recounted that they were “innocent” and “ordinary citizens” and had not actually been CIA agents or traitors. The religious leaders who were arrested included hakims, hajis hajis, and tuons. He knew many of them, but not all. The villagers had no freedom and were distressed every day.

Returning to the topic of the rebellions, Mr. Farr inquired whether he was able to see or hear any of the fighting or the effects of them. Mr. Mat answered that he could hear the gun shots from Koh Phal.

There were military boats that “travelled on the river back and forth”. He saw large numbers of military boats after the rebellions. Before this, he had seen one or two boats.

He said that “nothing was done to villagers in Chumnik”, but people in Koh Phal had been taken away.

Mr. Farr wanted to know whether they were evacuated to Battambang and when this took place. Mr. Mat corrected him and said that they were not evacuated to Battambang, but to Kampong Thom instead. This took place in 1976. This did not include himself, since he was only evacuated in 1978. He remained living there until the Liberation Day. At this point, International Nuon Chea Defense Counsel Victor Koppe objected and said that Krouch Chhmar had already been under the occupation in 1970 and not 1975 as the witness had said. Judge Claudia Fenz said that Mr. Koppe would have time to clarify this later.

Mr. Farr wanted to know how many Cham continued living with him there. He did not know a number, but said that many remained there.

Next, Mr. Farr quoted a part of his first Written Record of Interview and asked whether it was accurate that he had been sent to Boeng Krachap.[3] The witness confirmed this and said that many people had been sent there. It was located in Tbung Khbum District and around 100 kilometers away from Chumnik. He stayed there for three months to build a dam. After this, he was sent back to his village. He confirmed that he was in a mobile brigade while being in Boeng Krachap. He remained in that brigade when returning to Chumnik Village. The chief of the mobile brigade was ethnically Khmer.

 

Purges

Mr. Farr wanted to know whether he remembered a time that a number of East Zone cadres were arrested. He confirmed this and said that there was a war between the East Zone and the Central Zone. The Central Zone purged the East Zone. He knew this, because the Central Zone cadres came and asked about the East Zone people and referred to them as traitors.

Mr. Farr sought permission to read an excerpt of the other statement that the witness had not reviewed yet.[4] He asked the witness whether it refreshed his memory that Ke Pauk had talked about the purge. He replied that he only heard about Pol Pauk and that he never saw him in person. He was in charge of the Central Zone. He just heard people say that this person came to Krouch Chhmar, but did not know anything else about this. This took place in 1978. He could not recall the month.

At this point, the Chamber adjourned for a break.

 

 

Meeting

After the break, the floor was granted to the Co-Prosecution again. Mr. Farr read an excerpt of the second interview, in which he had said that the secretary of Sector 41 was Ke Pauk.[5]

Mr. Koppe interjected and said that the witness had clarified in another document that he was talking about two people.[6] Mr. Farr said that he had overlooked this sought clarification on the issue. The witness said that villagers called him sometimes Ke Pauk and sometimes Pol Pauk.

Turning to his next topic, Mr. Farr inquired whether he had heard about Pauk summoning meetings with East Zone leaders, which the witness denied. This prompted Mr. Farr to read out an excerpt of his Written Record of Interview, in which she had said that Pauk summoned East Zone leaders in Kampong Thom.[7] Mr. Mat said that he remembered now. The chief of Chumnik Commune told him that the chiefs of the East Zone had to go to a meeting. He heard this only once. The commune chiefs and district chiefs went there to attend the meeting. He did not attend the meeting. The commune chief asked him to drive the boat to Steung Trang and the motorbike at Steung Trang. At the meeting, Ke Pauk spoke on the microphone, which he heard from outside. He heard that all sectors form the East Zone attended the meeting. The district chief had his own messenger to drive him to the meeting. The name of the commune chief that he drove there was Huon. He was the Chumnik Commune chief after the evacuation took place. The meeting took place in Kampong Thmal. The building was made of concrete with a tiled roof and wooden windows. He could hear the sound outside, since it had a tiled roof and wooden windows. He heard that the new chiefs assigned to the East Zone needed to implement the instructions of the policy regarding the plan to smash the Cham. Some answered that they had implemented the plan to 50%. It was also said that they needed to implement the plan regarding people who were betraying Angkar regardless of their ethnicity.

The chief who introduced the presiding meeting of the person – Ke Pauk – encouraged the cadres to implement Angkar’s policy. He heard from the commune chief of Chumnik who said that he had achieved 50% of the policy. He did not know about other commune chiefs. The meeting lasted more than two hours. The commune chief told him that he had to keep what he had heard at the meeting to himself and was not allowed to tell anyone. The commune chief did not know at the beginning that Mr. Mat was Cham. Later, he knew this.

 

Evacuations

He told his friends in the mobile brigade that “the situation is not normal” and that they would be targeted. Thus, they fled into the forest. He told both the Cham and the Khmer in the mobile unit. He told the Cham to be careful, because the situation could become worse.

After the meeting, they evacuated the Cham people. They had “big engine boats to evacuate people along the river.” There had been two or three rounds of evacuation before Mr. Mat was evacuated. The groups included men, women and children. Most of the evacuees were Cham. A few of the people were Khmer who had been evacuated from Phnom Penh. About 30% remained after the evacuation. The chiefs told them that they had to be evacuated. When they arrived, he told his friends that the situation could be dangerous, so they jumped into the water. At Steung Trang, the Khmer Rouge cadres came to tie them up. They told them that they would tie them up for five minutes before reaching land. They used a string of around ten meters to tie them in a line. He and a few friends, however, jumped into the water. He said that this action “saved my life”. Some of the people jumped into the water despite having been tied up, but could not escape. There were two or three persons in each boat. There were cadres at Steung Trang waiting to receive them. “They shot many bullets” when he jumped into the water, but since it was night time, the armed guards missed him. The persons who told him to evacuate were Aun and Hay.  There were people who refused to be evacuated. They were arrested and beheaded. Asked for clarification by Mr. Farr, he recounted that it was only one person who refused to be evacuated. This man refused to go, since his family was not evacuated.

People who had to be evacuated were gathered at Svay Damnak pagoda. There were around four to five motorboats. The pagoda was used as a commune office. The Cham people comprised around 98% of the group. Only around two percent were Khmer people who had been evacuated from Phnom Penh.

Mr. Farr referred to his interview, in which he had talked about thousands of people who were evacuated.[8] The witness explained that before this, people had been evacuated. They were instructed to board the boats when the night fell. There were two to three people on each boat. The armed cadres carried AK-47 weapons. The women and children disembarked first when they arrived.

It was said that they were evacuated from the Eastern Zone to the Central Zone, since “traitors” had given resources from Angkar to “the enemy”. The people were wearing the military uniform of the Khmer Rouge and were armed.

He told the people to flee to the forest when returning to Chumnik Village. Two months later, the liberation force arrived.

 

Escape

When escaping, he swam to the other side of the river bank. There were many floating corpses, “so I hang onto one” and floated with it through the river.

All the people in the mobile unit fled into the forest. He was told that if they did not retaliate they would be killed. Other said that they did not have any weapons. Someone said that some people had hid weapons in a well. They found these weapons and attacked the soldiers who were “herding” people to send them onto boats. They shot at boats and sank a few of them. They had some weapons with them when they wanted to retaliate. Their plan was to disrupt the cadre’s actions and prevent them from carrying out more evacuations. He said that they were successful. “They came to herd people from the area every single day”. He had been told that the evacuees had been killed. Some people were tied up, slipped on the plank and fell into the water. The armed cadres shot at them and killed them.

He returned to Chumnik after the liberation. None of the people who had been evacuated returned to the village. There were “thousands and thousands of people who were killed.” He moved to Kratie Province in 1991.

The floor was granted to the Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyers. National Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyer Pich Ang gave the floor to Ms. Chet Vanly, who asked in which year he was taken onto a boat to be killed but survived, because he jumped into the river. He said that this took place in 1978. They tied the men up, because “of course men were stronger than women”. He did not know what happened to the women and children, since they were put on a different boat. He did not know where they landed. “It was certain that they had been killed, because after I had made landfall, they never returned”. When referring to the upper echelon, he said that they had heard of Pol Pot.

Turning to the next topic, Ms. Vanly wanted to know what they ate instead of pork. He replied that they ate salt instead.

At the worksite, the Cham people had to work harder than the Khmer people. The situation became harder with each replacement. They were called to an open meeting where the announcement was made that the Cham should not believe in their “superstitious religion”. They were prohibited from practicing their religion. Some people hid a few Qur’ans in the ground by burying them.

Ms. Vanly then inquired whether they were allowed to fast during Ramadan, to which Mr. Mat replied that they did not know when Ramadan fell. The Khmer Rouge forced the Cham to raise pigs. Some ate pork and vomited afterwards. The Cham people were banned from speaking their language and had to speak Khmer.

Cham children were in one place to collect cow dung. An older woman supervised them. He was not allowed to live with his wife and children.

At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for the lunch break.

 

Follow-up questions

After the break, the floor was given to Judge Jean-Marc Lavergne. He turned back to the meeting and asked who chaired it. He answered that Ke Pauk was presiding over the meeting.  He heard that the chief of the zone gave a speech there. The people from the East Zone were accused of being traitors. He heard him say that the people from the East Zone had to be purged. All people, including base people, had to be purged, since they were accused of having a Khmer body and a Vietnamese mind. At that time, Cham people were not discussed, since they were being “transported out”. They only discussed cadres or people form the East Zone.

He could recall being interviewed by the person called Ysa Osman. Judge Lavergne read out an excerpt of his book The Cham Rebellion, in which he had said that Ke Pauk chaired a meeting in which it was said that Cham members of a mobile unit had to be purged.[9] The witness explained that all members, not only Cham people, had to be purged.

Questions were asked about Cham and Khmer people, he recounted, and the plan was to purge East Zone cadres. Judge Lavergne inquired whether there was no plan made that was directed against the Cham, which the witness confirmed. “All traitors needed to be smashed.” With this, Judge Lavergne finished his line of questioning and the floor was granted to the Nuon Chea Defense Team.

 

Persons of authority

Nuon Chea Defense Counsel Victor Koppe started his examination of the witness by asking who Kun Kim is. The witness answered that “Excellency Kun Kim was one of the commanders in the Liberation Front”, which Pol Pot wanted to kill. “He was one amongst the group who led the resistance against Pol Pot.” He did not know his actual position during that time. He only knew that he was a commander who was resisting against Pol Pot, and did not know what he did before. His rank, he said, could not be compared to Heng Samrin or Chea Sim. He commanded a few soldiers in Tbung Khbum.

Mr. Koppe then read an excerpt of the witness’s statement, in which he had said that he had fought in a resistance group and later joined the “big army of Kun Kim.”[10] He replied that they worked closely with Kun Kim’s troop. He estimated that Kun Kim commanded 400 to 500 or even up to 1,000 soldiers. He did not know who Kun Kim reported to. Today, he is the deputy in chief of the combined forces within the Royal Forces, the witness said. Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether he was the highest-ranking military person in Cambodia, which the witness denied. He explained that a few people were above him. The witness said that the word “deputy” already indicated that he was not the highest-ranking person.

Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether this person recently received a PhD in Vietnam, which the witness did not know.

Mr. Koppe said that in Sector 21 – to which Krouch Chhmar belonged – there was a person called Kun Det. He wanted to know whether this was the same person as Kun Kim. The witness did not know.[11]

Mr. Koppe further said that there was a person called Hung Kim and wanted to know whether this was the same person. At this point, Mr. Farr interjected and asked for references, which Mr. Koppe did. He then wanted to know where Kun Kim was located at the time, which he did not know. Asked about his own position, Mr. Mat said that he held no position. He was armed and therefore tasked with protecting people.

Referring to the witness’s statement, Mr. Koppe asked whether he had said to the investigators that he was part of a resistance group, which they called the National Salvation Front in the village. He confirmed this information and explained that they had no food at the time. The five rifles “was the result from the fighting between the Pol Pot soldiers and the East Zone soldiers”. He recalled that they threw away these five rifles, so they collected them. They picked them up from wells.

Mr. Koppe asked whether it was correct that he was presently one of the body guards for Hun Sen, which the witness confirmed. He got this position after 1979. He knew him before this date, but did not see him, since he “was in the West” and he was at his base. Asked for the meaning of “was in the West”, Mr. Mat clarified that he was in the East and was accused of betraying Angkar. He did not know in which year Hun Sen fled, since there were no mobile phones at the time. They did not combine forces. He also did not know what position he held. Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether he ever told him later that he was the Deputy Regiment Commander in Sector 21, which the witness did not know. Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether he ever told him that his regiment had a role in crushing the Cham rebellion in 1975, which the witness said Hun Sen had not told him.

Mr. Koppe read an excerpt of a Regiment or Battalion 51 commander, who had talked about the crushing of the rebellion.[12] Mr. Mat said that he had not heard of it. Asked about Heng Samrin, he said that he “of course” heard of his name, since he led the troops to liberate the country. When Mr. Koppe asked about Heng Samrin’s role, Mr. Farr objected and said that the witness’s connection to Heng Samrin had not been clear. Mr. Koppe asked whether the witness had met Heng Samrin after 1979, which the witness denied. Neither had he heard from others about Samrin’s role.  Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether he had heard that Samrin was the highest military officer in the East Zone after Sao Phim at the time, which the witness had not. Neither had he heard of Sao Phim. When Mr. Koppe pressed on, Mr. Mat insisted that he did not know Sao Phim. Mr. Koppe said that there was evidence on the Case File that almost everyone in that area new Sao Phim. The witness reiterated that he did not know him.

Mr. Koppe moved on and inquired whether he knew the person Chhan, who was the sector 21 chief. He answered that he did not know. Next, Mr. Koppe asked whether he had ever heard of Uk Bunchhoeun, which the witness had not. Again, the witness told the Court that he did not know who this is.

Mr. Koppe referred to Chhan’s son’s interview. Chhan’s son had said that his father had told people to deny events that took place in Sector 21.[13] The witness said that he had never heard about this instruction. Neither had he heard of Hem Samin. This prompted Mr. Koppe to read out an excerpt of Ben Kiernan’s book: he had written that Sao Phim was blamed for the repression of the Cham in 1975 and 1974.[14] Again, the witness said that he had not heard of this.

As for Pol Saroeun, he said that he had heard of him at present times, but not back during the Khmer Rouge forces. He is the commander of the Royal Armed Forces, Mr. Mat said.

Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether he played a role in the National Salvation Front. The witness did not know about this. Turning to the next person, Mr. Koppe inquired whether he had heard of the person called Mat Ly, which Mr. Mat confirmed. He said that he had only heard of him.

The President interjected and ordered Mr. Koppe to focus on the relevant facts, as the witness – according to the President – had said that he did not know Mat Ly. Mr. Koppe repeated his question whether he knew Mat Ly. Mr. Mat replied that he had heard of his name, but that he did not know much about him.

 

Rebellions and resistance movements

Mr. Koppe moved on and asked whether the Khmer Rouge had not in fact taken over control in his area in 1970, and not in 1975 as he had said earlier. The witness said that he did not know this and only knew that the killing started in 1975. Mr. Koppe then wanted to know what he meant when he said that Upper Angkar ordered to arrest the people. He answered that he had heard that the upper Angkar came to arrest religious leaders, including hakims and tuons. 

Next, Mr. Koppe wanted to know what his source of knowledge was for saying that Pol Pauk was the brother of Ke Pauk, at which point Mr. Farr interjected and said that the witness had said that Pol Pauk was the brother of Pol Pot. The witness said that he had indeed heard that Pol Pauk was related to Pol Pot and chief of the Central Zone. “And that’s why he was so vicious”. He did not know whether this was actually true or not. “You need to do your own research”, the witness told Mr. Koppe.

As for the fate of the people in Koh Phal, he said that the people were transported out of Koh Phal by boats. “They were accused of opposing Pol Pot.” In 1979, “there was no one remained in Koh Phal, there were only trees.” Mr. Koppe asked whether he was sure having heard the name of Pol Pot in 1975, which the witness affirmed. “I heard of his name even prior to 1975.”

Mr. Koppe then wanted to know whether he had ever heard of FURO or Khmer Sar (the White Khmer), which the witness had not.

Mr. Koppe referred to the next document, which indicated that Heng Samrin had talked about a secret struggle.[15] Mr. Mat said that he had not heard of this.

Turning to the meeting that Mr. Mat had witnessed, Mr. Koppe said that a lot of evidence seemed to suggest that Zone leaders would only speak to Sector leaders or sometimes district chiefs, but not to commune chiefs. He wanted to know whether the commune chief told him that it was a special occasion. He answered that he had not been told that it was a special occasion and that he was only told that there were bandits. He did not know what the word purge meant in this context, since he had no right to ask his commune chief any questions about this. Mr. Koppe then wanted to know whether he recalled specifically percentages, which the witness did. Mr. Koppe asked whether he was maybe “mixing up” things, since percentages were usually used in relation to rice and crops. The witness insisted that they referred to purges.

Mr. Koppe then confronted the witness:  “Mr. Witness, I put it to you that you never overheard a meeting during which purges or executions were discussed”. Mr. Mat said that he overheard the discussion and that they referred to the purge of East Zone cadres.

Lastly, Mr. Koppe asked what his qualifications were to be a body-guard for Hun Sen, to which the witness replied that it was his willingness to defend that made him qualified.

At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.

 

 

Attacking the Khmer Rouge

After the break, Mr. Koppe said that he had questions for five more minutes. Mr. Koppe wanted to know what he could remember from the shootings: what were the casualties, were there civilians who died and was he involved in shooting himself? He answered that soldiers confronted soldiers. It was a small-scale fighting, involving around 50-100 men. When the Khmer Rouge came to gather up people, “we fought back to prevent them from gathering people”.

Kun Kim was involved in commanding the groups. However, not his troops sank the boats. Pol Pot sent the boats to Kampong Cham. The men from the mobile brigade shot the boats. There was no big army involved in this, since the “big army” was involved in fighting at the provincial level. There was one group belonging to Sea Soucheat. He had not received any military training beforehand. They used guns to resist, since they had suffered so much before. They used the 15 rifles that he had referred to in his Written Record of Interview to sink the boats. With this, Mr. Koppe finished his line of questioning.

 

Cham people in the village

The floor was granted to Khieu Samphan Defense Team. International Defense Counsel Anta Guissé turned to the year 1975. She said that he had said that there was no political meeting, but that he was told that the practicing of Islam was forbidden.[16] She asked whether there was any meeting to discuss religious practices. He replied that the meeting was not only about the prohibition of Islam, but also of other religions including Buddhism. Everyone was asked to attend the meeting, including Cham and Khmer people. Also Khmer women were asked to cut their hair short.

She then wanted to know whether the number of 10,000 people that he had indicated earlier included Cham and Khmer people. He denied this and said that he talked about three villages. One village – namely Chumnik Village – had more than 10,000 people. These 10,000 people were Cham and not Khmer. He based his estimate on the counting of families. He said that the 10,000 people equaled to around 1,000 families, and there were more than 1,000 families in Chumnik village. The village chief who told him this was Mat Tym. He told him this in 1979. Mat Tym was ethnic Cham. He stopped being the village chief in 1978 when Pol Pot ordered to evacuate the village. There was no person assigned to replace him, “because people fled into the forest”. He confirmed that Mat Tym remained village chief until the witness fled into the forest. He worked in the mobile unit from 1977, 1978.  She referred to his Written Record of Interview and asked who assigned him.[17] He said that the unit chief assigned him to guard. He possessed not weapon. “It was like herding the cattle, so I had no guns.”

She asked whether he agreed that he accompanied a commune chief to the meeting in the Central Zone, which he did. She asked whether it was Hun. He said that Oun was the deputy chief and Hun the chief. He also confirmed that the district chief came to the meeting with his own messenger.

Ms. Guissé said that it appeared that there were errors in Ysa Osman’s book: he had written in this book that Mr. Mat accompanied the district secretary that he accompanied on the motorbike.[18] He replied that the commune chief and district chief travelled together. At first, he was assigned to drive the motorbike for the district chief, but since the commune chief did not know how to drive, he was asked to drive for the commune chief. The commune chief asked for permission to borrow the motorbike from the commerce chief to go to the meeting. The district chief had a security guard or messenger who went with him. He could not recall the name of the district chief.

Ms. Guissé asked whether it was correct that this took place at the end of 1978, which he confirmed. She asked whether the name Ho refreshed his memory, which he denied. She asked whether the name Phoung meant anything, which he also denied. He remembered that the members of the mobile brigade were accused of being bandits and were killed. A person called Aun might have died already.

The district chief passed away in 1978. He came to gather the members of the mobile brigade when an exchange of fire took place. He was killed. Pressed on by Ms. Guissé, he said that he was sure that the district chief passed away in this fire exchange. After the killing of the leader, he said, they did not have any forces to gathering up people.

She said that the alias was not actually Phoung, but Hang.[19] He had not heard of this name either. Nor had he heard of the name Ho. She inquired whether the name Phos rang a bell, which he denied.

Turning to the next topic, Ms. Guissé wanted to know whether he indeed stayed outside of the building when the meeting took place. He said that he was not required to attend the meeting, so he stayed outside. He did not see the people in the room.

She said that Ysa Osman had written that he had seen the people through the windows. She asked whether he confirmed that this was an error and that he had never seen the people. He said that he did not “bother looking into the room”. He did not see the people there. He saw a few when they left the room.

Ms. Guissé referred to his audio transcript form an interview, in which he had referred to Ke Pauk and Pol Pauk. He now said that he did not know whether one of these names was a new name. Ms. Guissé said that he had distinguished two people in his interview.[20] Reacting to this, he said that Pol Pot and Pol Pauk were related. Other people said that Pol Pot and Pol Pauk were the same person. She asked why he had said in 2008 that Ke Pauk and Pol Pauk were two different people. He answered that “you may have confused my answer.” He had not said, according to him, that Pol Pot and Pol Pauk were the same person. He had heard people say that the Central Zone chief was this person.

The hearing was interrupted, since the witness needed to visit the rest room. After a few minutes, the Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel was given the floor again. She referred to one of his statements, in which he had said that both Cham and Khmer people were targeted.[21] He answered that he could not remember what he had said, but that no one would be spared if viewed a traitor. With this, she gave the floor to her national colleague Kong Sam Onn.

He inquired about his time at the mobile unit. He answered that he worked there from 1975. The conditions were not very harsh in 1975 compared to the working conditions in 1977. Thuyk and Soy were the chiefs of the mobile unit. They had the authority to assign them work and to send them to commune chiefs. He was friends with these two people. “We discussed about the plans of the Khmer Rouge at the time” and about the plans that people were to be killed. They believed him, because he accompanied the commune chief to the meeting, after which he discussed the issue with them.

Mr. Sam Onn wanted him to tell when the resistance between the East Zone cadres and the Central Zone cadres happened. He replied that it was in 1977. He saw the exchange of gun fires. Some houses were burned as a result. The battlefields took place in Ksach Prachhes. The East Zone soldiers threw away their weapons and fled. There was sporadic fighting from September onwards. Sometimes, the mobile brigade members surrounded the Khmer Rouge office. At this point, the President interjected and adjourned the hearing. He thanked the witness and dismissed him. The next hearing will resume tomorrow, March 10 2016, with the testimony of witness 2-TCW-921 in relation to the Phnom Kraol Security Center.

[1] E3/8735.

[2] E3/5209, at question one.

[3] E3/5209, at 00242067 (EN), 00293936 (FR), 00218536 (KH).

[4] E3/8735, 00722241 (E)E() 00716487 (KH) 00727597 (FR)

[5] At 00722241 (EN), 00716487 (KH), 00727597 (FR).

[6] E3/5209.1, at 01153931 (EN), 01152702 (FR) 01151671 (KH). This is a partial transcript of D125/104R.

[7] At 00722241 (EN), 00716487 (KH), 00727597 (FR).

[8] E3/5209, at 00242068 (EN), 00218538 (KH), 00293938 (FR).

[9] E3/9323, at 00286658 (FR), 00275387 (KH), 00218542 (EN).

[10] E3/5209, at 00242069 (EN), 00218538 (KH), 00293938-39 (FR).

[11] E315/8, at 00651892 (EN), 00713967 (KH), 00743365 (FR).

[12] E3/5261, at 00250943 (KH), 00285329 (FR), 00274336 (EN).

[13] E3/5531, at answer 66.

[14] E3/153, Ben Kiernan, at 00637770-71 (KH) 00639034 (FR)

[15] E3/1568, at 00651889 (EN), 00713962 (KH) 00743361 (FR)

[16] E3/5209, at 00293937 (FR), 00218537 (KH), 00242067 (EN).

[17] E3/5209, at 00293937 (FR) 00218537 (KH), 00242068 (EN).

[18] E3/932, at 00286658 (FR), 00275387 (KH), 00218542 (EN).

[19] Testimony of Ban Siek, 06 October 2015, at 11:19-11:21.

[20] E3/5209.1

[21] E3/837, at 00727597 (FR), 00716487 (KH), 00722240 (EN).

 

Featured Image: Witness Van Mat (ECCC: Flickr).