First Witness in Relation to Phnom Kraol Center Testifies

Today, former prisoner of Phnom Kraol Security Center Chan Tauy appeared as the first witness in case 002/02 in relation to this location, which was also known as K-17. He told the Court about living conditions at Phnom Kraol, where he was detained for one month.

 

Background of the witness

All parties were present, with Nuon Chea following the hearing from the holding cell. The Trial Chamber Greffier announced that witness 2-TCW-921 would be heard first, and witness 2-TCW-817 was on the reserve.

Witness Chan Tauy, 56 years old, was born in Chi Miet Village, Koh Nhek district, Mondulkiri, where he also currently lives.

The floor was granted to the Co-Prosecutors. National Deputy Co-Prosecutor Seng Leang started his line of questioning by asking about his name, but was prevented by the President from putting this question to the witness, since it had already been covered by the President earlier. He moved on and wanted to know the level of education. He answered that he studied during the regime of Samdech Sihanouk, but quit school when the war broke out. He was in Grade 12 of the old education system. He lived in Koh Nhek District with his parents before the Khmer Rouge arrived. He referred to the witness’s statement, in which he had said that he went to the forest and became a messenger for San Ra.[1] The witness said that the statement was partially incorrect and asked Mr. Leang to repeat his question. He said that he lived with his parents before the Khmer Rouge arrived. Asked whether he ever attended the revolutionary movement at that time, he said that he was young and did not understand the events clearly. He said that he became a messenger after 17 April 1975. Pressed on this issue, he said that he could not remember dates clearly. His area was known as Sector 105 after 17 April 1975. The name of the sector committee was Horm. He could remember the name Kham Phoun, too.

Mr. Leang then wanted to know who San Ra was. The witness said that he was the deputy chief of Koh Nhek. He could not recall clearly how long he worked for him. He had to wash clothes, cook food and deliver letters for San Ra. He delivered letters to the sector’s office to Ta Horm. The office was located at Phnom Kraol. He could not remember the name of the office. He did not deliver messages to other sectors.

 

Ta Horm and Ta Kham Phoun

Mr. Leang wanted to know whether he could recall any specific event related to the individuals Horm and Kham Phoun. Horm was the chief of the sector, and Kham Phoun was the people’s representative in Sector 105. He learned that Horm and Kham Phoun to Phnom Penh later and exchanged gunfire. They died in Phnom Penh. He did not know whether they were killed. The messengers returned from Phnom Penh and told him about it. After Horm and Kham Phoun disappeared “there was chaos”.

Mr. Leang wanted to know whether he ever saw the arrests of people in his sector, which the witness confirmed. When Mr. Leang asked to expand on the “chaos” that emerged after the disappearances of the two individuals, Nuon Chea Defense Counsel Victor Koppe interjected and said that the witness had said that they had killed each other and not talked about arrests or disappearances. Mr. Leang said that the witness had said that he did not know whether they were killed or disappeared.

Moving on, Mr. Leang wanted to know whether he was arrested at the time. The witness said that the network of Ta Horm arrested the network of Ta Kham Phoun. Ta Saroeun replaced them.

Mr. Leang wanted to know whether he knew someone called Phan Khon, which he did. Phan Khon was the father-in-law of Ta Horm. Ta Kham Phoun and Ta Horm were in-laws.

He was arrested together with other people, “perhaps more than eighty”. The witness was the messenger of Ra, who was the nephew of Kham Phoun. His wife was a distant relative of Kham Phoun. Ra and Kham Phoun had been arrested before the witness was arrested.

 

Living conditions at Phnom Kraol

He was brought to Phnom Kraol. It was a two-story building. There was open space under the first floor. The building was not the prison, but the sector office. He confirmed that it was used to detain and keep people who had been arrested. More than eighty people were detained in the building. This included women and children. He did not see Ra and Kham Phoun there. He was detained there for around a month. Everyone except the children were tied up.

As for the food ration, they had a bowl of rice with pumpkin, which was not sufficient. As for hygiene, “there was no hygiene at all”. When they needed to relieve themselves, they had to call the security guards, who would accompany them to the rest room. The detainees had skin diseases. They did not receive any medicine to treat the diseases. No one died from diseases during the time that he was there.

He said he was not interrogated. This prompted Mr. Leang to refer to his Written Record of Interview, in which he had said that he was threatened, albeit not tortured.[2] He could not remember. Those who were detained with him on the ground floor were not sent to be killed. He did not have any lawyer at the time. “They arrested me arbitrarily”. Nor was there any court.

They were assigned to beat jute seeds. They stamped the seeds for around one or two hours and then stopped.

Mr. Leang gave the floor to his international colleague. International Prosecutor Nicholas Koumjian asked when he was arrested. He said it took place in November 1977. Khan and Sot came to arrest them. They were part of the security force from the sector. All the members of his family were arrested, including his siblings and mother. At that time, he was married and did not have any children.

When Mr. Koumjian asked whether it was correct that, having indicated that he is 56 at present times he was 17 in 1977, Mr. Koppe interjected and said that the witness had indicated being born in 56 in his Written Record of Interview, which would make him 21 in 1977.

Mr. Koumjian moved on, but the President instructed him to ascertain his age. The witness said that this was what his mother told him. His wife was arrested along with him. “And at that time, we had no hope of surviving.” He explained his hopelessness, because “usually when people were arrested, none of the survived.” Mr. Koumjian asked him to explain why people were arrested just because they were related to someone. He answered that “during the Pol Pot regime, when the father was arrested, his wife, his children and his parents would also be arrested.”

They used a string to tie them up and attach them to some chairs. At night time also their feet were tied up. The children were not tied up and were let out when they had to relieve themselves. He did not know who was detained at the upper floor. Mr. Koumjian then wanted to know whether he saw anyone being removed at night time, which Mr. Tauy had not. “None of the detainees from my room disappeared. This prompted Mr. Koumjian to read out an excerpt of his interview, in which he had talked about the executions of eight relatives of Kham Phoun.[3] He could not remember the answer he had given in the interview. It was his personal conclusion that when people were taken out, they would be killed.

At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break. He announced that after the break, a request by the Nuon Chea Defense Team would be heard regarding the admission of a document that they wanted to use for the questioning of expert TCE-88.

 

Responses to request to admit additional document

After the break, the President sought responses by the parties to use a document to question expert 2-TCE-88.

Mr. Koumjian said that they did not see the relevance of the document to the expert and asked Nuon Chea Defense Counsel to explain this. Mr. Koppe said that this was a set of originally German documents that were drafted by the East German Security Service (Stasi). They had received copies of these documents at some point. The main part consisted of so-called Kurzbiographien (short biographies). The Vietnamese intelligence service made short biographies of people belonging to the National Salvation Front. They gave this to the East German counterpart. The Nuon Chea Defense Team were interested in nine biographies in particular. These were the biographies of: Heng Samrin, Hun Sen, Chea Sim, Pen Sovann, Hor Nam Hong, Keo Chanda, Pen Navuth, Ouk Bunchhoeun and Mat Ly.

These documents showed what these people had done to resist the CPK at some point. Mr. Koppe said that they were important to ascertain the truth, and in particular to see which former cadres were screened. They would focus on those that played a role in the East Zone. He said that Heng Samrin had an important role as a military commander. The same applied to Hun Sen. Ouk Bunchhoeun, being the deputy secretary of Sector 21 was also important for the events relating to the Cham. Mat Ly, whose name was redacted, but whose identity the defense team was certain having identified in the document, was particularly relevant to the Cham segment. Chanda also relevant. Hor Namhong was also important, but potentially more important for the S-21 hearings. He said that it showed that Hun Sen defected to Vietnam in June 1977.

Judge Claudia Fenz asked about the probative value and wanted to know whether he knew the basis for the assessments found in the documents. Mr. Koppe said that the documents were in principle accessible to anyone. He further said that they had not been able to do extensive research due to a lack of resources. Judge Lavergne wanted to know whether this document should be admitted for the expert or because it was of relevance for the whole of Case 002/02. Mr. Koppe explained that the request was to admit them into evidence and to present a few of them to the expert.

Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel Anta Guissé remarked that the document reminded her of the document E3/9644. She said that it was important to consider the international context of the Cold War and that it was relevant to have these documents to see how the parties perceived the CPK.

Mr. Koumjian then gave his response. He said that it was first distinguish two questions: first, whether this document was to be admitted by the Chamber, and second whether it was to be used for the expert. He said that the expert was to be called in relation to the treatment of the Cham, and asking him about resistance movements and political structures in the East Zone was beyond the expert’s expertise. Thus, the Co-Prosecutors objected to the use of all documents except for the short biography of one person who is believed to be Cham for the questioning of the expert, but did not object to its admission in general.

The Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyers did not have any remarks.

The floor was granted to Nuon Chea Defense Team. Mr. Koppe explained the relevance of the document by saying that Ouk Bunchhoeun was deputy secretary of Sector 21, which also included Krouch Chhmar. Understanding the authority structure was crucial, and he said that this document seemed to proof that the resistance did not start in 1977 or 1978, but almost immediately after 17 April 1975. The expert should be allowed to be questions to, since this was relevant for Sector 21.

 

Back to the witness

The President then ordered to usher in the witness. Mr. Koumjian resumed his line of questioning by asking the witness to describe the location of the office on Phnom Kraol. The building was located within the current military compound on Phnom Kraol. He heard about the killings and corpses later, Mr. Tauy said.  He did not witness any killings himself. He said that he was not interested in the “I hated the regime so much, and as a result I did not pay much attention to it.”

In relation to the person Phan Khon, Mr. Koumjian showed a document to the witness.[4] The document was a list of 23 November 1977, which listed people who entered S-21. He pointed to numbers 97 upwards, and in particular 106-143 and directed the attention to number 128, which showed a man called Phan Khon with the alias Chhoeun. Mr. Tauy confirmed that he knew the person. He was based at the commerce office. He transported and delivered clothes to people. Phan Khon was the brother-in-law of Ta Horm. Mr. Koumjian wanted to know whether he had been aware at the time that Phan Khon had been arrested. Mr. Tauy replied that he learned about this after the regime. When Phan Khon disappeared, his wife and children also disappeared. Ra was Kham Phoun’s network. When Kham Phoun passed away, his network was arrested. Ra’s relatives also disappeared.

Mr. Koumjian then requested permission to present E3/156 to the witness, which was granted. It was a telegram addressed to Respected Brother uncle Nuon. Before he started reading out the document, Ms. Guissé objected and said that no introductory and preliminary questions had been put to the witness to establish the link to the witness. Mr. Koumjian said that Chhuon was also mentioned in the document. Mr. Koppe objected and said that it was not sufficient that the name was mentioned. The witness had no connection to the document and no position to give any information on this. Mr. Koumjian continued reading the excerpt of the document. The witness said that he knew the individual Sot who was mentioned. Mr. Koumjian said that the telegram was signed by Saroeun and wanted to know whether that was the person who replaced Horm, which the witness confirmed.

Sot stayed in the area near Phnom Kraol in the vehicle repair shop. He did not know his real position. Sot and Khan came to arrest him, but he did not hear of them again afterwards. He had a weapon when being a messenger.

Turning to the topic of the Vietnamese, Mr. Koumjian wanted to know whether any Vietnamese refugees were caught in his district. He answered that there were no Vietnamese or other ethnicities passing through his area.

His father-in-law was arrested and taken to be killed, because “the regime had a policy that the soldiers of the former regime or anyone who was accused of being spies […] were arrested and killed.” His gun was confiscated when he was arrested. As for judicial processes, he said that there were no lawyers. When people were arrested “they were taken away and shot dead”. During the regime, he lost his father-in-law and the relatives of Ra and Kham Phoun were also killed. With this, he handed the floor to the Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyers.

Mr. Hong Kim Suon asked whether he only lived in that district, which he confirmed. Koh Nhek District was probably Roh 1. Mr. Kim Suon then wanted to know whether there were other buildings located around the detention center. Mr. Tauy replied that the building was an office from the center. He did not see any other detention places, and only knew that it was called a security center. When they arrived, men and women were tied up in two rows and children were not tied up. They were given a small bowl of rice with pumpkin soup. Sometimes they were only given meal at noon or sometimes only in the evening.

At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.

 

Living conditions

After the break, the floor was granted to the Civil Party lawyers. He asked whether they were given water to drink and whether they were allowed to bathe. He was not allowed to bathe during the month that he was detained there and received water in the morning and sometimes in the afternoon. They had to get the water from a bucket. They were given a small bowl to eat. There were no infants or small babies in the center. There were children of six or eight years. No one got diarrhea or dysentery, but they had skin diseases. There were not blankets or sleeping mats. At night time, their ankles were tied to the string. During day time, their hands were tied to the jute string. There was some rain in November.

Turning to his release, Mr. Kim Suon asked whether he was freed and reassigned to work at other places after one month. He answered that he was reassigned to a worksite. Twenty of them were assigned to one worksite and on other occasions other people were sent to other worksites. He could not recall how many people were freed. Today, some prisoners had already deceased. He estimated that only the children were still alive. Women did the same job. “We worked day and night.” The worksites that he was assigned to work were rotating. He did not know the fate of some of the people.

Mr. Kim Suon wanted to know whether he knew a place called Trapeang Pring. He answered that there were many Trapeang Prings. The lawyer clarified that it was around four kilometers away from Phnom Kraol. He answered that he never moved around during the time. Mr. Kim Suon asked whether he heard of the names Nuon Chea and Khieu Samphan and whether he knew if they ever visited his sector. He answered that he had heard their names over the radio, but that he never knew them. To his understanding, it was the policy of the Khmer Rouge to arrest family members as well. The floor was granted to the Nuon Chea Defense Team.

 

Office K-17

Nuon Chea Defense Counsel Victor Koppe started his line of questioning by asking whether it was correct that the building he was detained in was the office of the sector and not a prison, which the witness confirmed. Mr. Koppe referred to his statement, in which he had said that it was not a prison.[5] Mr. Tauy replied that to his understanding the detention center was located in the office. It was known as K-17. His relatives had been released, but he did not know where other people had gone.

Mr. Koppe said that he had said that two uncles and some women had been released and asked whether it was correct.[6] He confirmed that the two names Mr. Koppe had read out were the names of two co-detainees. They were released on the same day.

Mr. Koppe said that he referred to Division 920 in his DC-Cam statement. He said that he knew of this division. He did not know the name of the commander of the division. He knew several Chhins. He did not know the Ta Chhin of Division 920. He had not heard that people from this division had been arrested. He never heard that they had been detained at Phnom Kraol and possibly released.

Mr. Koppe wanted to know why Ta Horm and Ta Kham Phoun were in conflict. He did not know whether they killed each other or whether they were imprisoned. He knew that they disappeared since.

Mr. Koppe read an excerpt of another person who had talked about the murder of Ta Horm by Kham Phoun, who had killed himself subsequently.[7] The witness replied that the messengers had told him that the two people died, but they had not mentioned reasons for this.

Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether it was possible that Kham Phoun murdered Ta Horm on October 28 1977. He said that he did not know about this at the time and only heard about it later. Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether this might have been around one or two weeks before his arrest, which the witness confirmed. He did not know when exactly it took place, however. Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether people who worked closely with Kham Phoun were accused of treason by working closely together with Vietnamese troops. He answered that he did not know, since he was “nowhere near the leadership level”. No one said anything about a possible plot to overthrow the CPK during his detention.

He knew Ta Svay, who was the former chief of Nhek District. He did not know whether he had other names.

Mr. Koppe then wanted to know whether he had ever heard of a person called Ka Sy. He said that he only heard of his name, but did not know him in person, since he was from another district.

Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether he was chairman of District 5 and known as Phim alias Ka Sy. He answered that he did not know whether he was the chief or deputy, as he was in another district. Mr. Koppe read out an excerpt of the witness he had cited before. This witness had said that there was a plan to move Vietnamese into Mondulkiri.[8] Mr. Tauy answered that he had never heard about this. He did not know about weapons and ammunition being hidden somewhere. Neither did he know about people fleeing to Vietnam after Kham Phoun had died. He did not know anything about the leadership level, since everything was kept in secret.

Next, Mr. Koppe asked whether he knew the organization called FURO.  He said that he only knew about this name during the UNTAC period. This prompted Mr. Koppe to read out an excerpt of his statement, in which he had talked about FURO.[9] He repeated that he only knew about this group after the arrival of the UNTAC group.

He referred to the other witness’s statement, who had said that it existed earlier.[10] Mr. Tauy insisted that he had not heard of it before. Mr. Koppe read another excerpt, in which someone had said that FURO had changed side, to which Mr. Koumjian objected. The witness could not provide any further information.

Turning to the next topic, Mr. Koppe sought information about Vietnamese attacks. The witness said that they took place during the liberation year. Mr. Koppe read an excerpt, which dealt with attacks by the Vietnamese already in 1977.[11] He answered that he did not know what happened on the battlefield and that only soldiers would know about such attacks.

Mr. Koppe then wanted to know whether he knew if Ta Horm himself was a Jarai. He said that Ta Harm spoke both the Laotian and the Khmer language, but he did not know whether he was Jarai. Mr. Koppe read out a sentence of another witness’s statement, who had talked about a plot that was supposed to take place in 1977.[12] The witness had never heard of anything like this.

 

The floor was then given to the Khieu Samphan Defense Team. Defense Counsel Anta Guissé, who asked whether he remembered what he had told the Co-Investigating Judges about Kham Phoun’s son.[13] He could not remember, “I do not really want to hear about that regime again”, he told the Court. She said that he had told the Co-Investigating Judges that Pham Phoun’s son often visited Vietnam.

He answered that he did not know about this. She said that he had told the Co-Investigating Judges and wanted to know who gave the information to him. He answered that he could not recall what he told the investigators. He said that he was simply a messenger during that time. He was not allowed to participate in meetings. “As I said, I was assigned to do the laundry, cook meals and deliver messages”. She asked whether it was correct to say that he did not know who issued orders, since he did not participate in meetings, which he confirmed.

Turning to his arrest, she asked whether Khan and Sok personally arrested him. He replied that Kham and Sok drove a vehicle to arrest him together with his family members.

Ta Horm was responsible for the sector. After Ta Horm died, Ta Saroeun replaced him as the head of the sector.

Soldiers were guarding the place where he was detained. He did not remember their names and did not know where they were from. Kham and Sot were not there when he was detained – they disappeared. They were not allowed to move around at the detention center. Ms. Guissé sought permission to present a document to the witness, which was granted.[14] The President then adjourned the hearing for a break.

At the beginning of the last session, Mr. Koumjian said that the ERNs provided by Mr. Koppe which seemed to evidence a plot was not actually a DC-Cam interview, but the witness had read out an S-21 confession.[15] Mr. Koppe said that the witness confirmed the information. He said that he was not aware that these were S-21 confessions that the witness had read out. Moreover, he might be reacting to a S-21 confession, but he provided the same information at a later stage. The Chamber then gave the floor to the International Defense Counsel for Khieu Samphan. Ms. Guissé asked him to confirm that he was with that person at K-17 whose Written Record of Interview had been provided to him before the break. He confirmed that this person was also detained with him. She referred to Mr. Tauy’s interview, in which he had talked about his time at the prison.[16] He answered that his memory did not serve him well anymore and that he could not remember whether he had said this to the investigators. “And I myself [am] not really interested in the trial”, he said.

Ms. Guissé then referred to the other witness’s statement. This witness had described office K-17 as being a two-story building with a tilted roof and wooden floor on the ground floor.[17] He said that the detention building was made out of concrete, but he did not know what the upper floor looked like. She asked whether he remembered that the five persons that the other witness mentioned were detained at K-17. Mr. Tauy answered that he could not remember who talked about what, and there were children who played outside of the building.

Turning to her last point, Ms. Guissé asked about the number of people who were on the ground floor. She said that the other witness had said that there were around 40 prisoners on the ground floor and not eighty as the witness had said. He explained that he counted the people who were tied up in line. There were eighty, he insisted, including women and children.

She pointed to his DC-Cam statement and repeated the question.[18] The witness could not shed more light on the matter. With this, Ms. Guissé concluded her line of questioning. The President thanked the witness and dismissed him. Since the witness could not reach the Chamber on time, the President adjourned the hearing already at 15:20. The hearing will resume tomorrow, Friday, March 11 2016, at 9 am with the testimony of 2-TCW-817 in relation to Phnom Kraol Security Center.

[1] E3/7694, at 00236705 (KH), 00242144 (EN), 00276802 (FR)

[2] E3/7694, at 00236706 (KH), 00242144 (EN), 00276803 (FR).

[3] “00276804 (FR), 00242144 (EN), 00236706 (KH).

[4] E3/1645.

[5] E3/7823, at 00645464 (EN) 00632712 (FR) 00231426 (KH).

[6] E3/7694, at 00236707 (KH), 00242144 (EN), no French ERN.

[7] E3/7960, at 00450296 (EN), 00851666 (KH), 0073899 (FR).

[8] E3/7960, at 00450295 (EN), 0073898-99 (FR), 0851665-66 (KH).

[9] E3/7823, at p 00645495 (EN), 00231459 (KH), 00632742 (FR).

[10] E3/7960.

[11] E3/7960.

[12] E3/7696, at 00384180 (EN).

[13] E3/7694, at 00276802 (FR), 00242142 (EN), 00236704 (KH).

[14] E3/7695, 2-TCW-817.

[15] E3/7696.

[16] E3/7823, at 00632716 (FR), 00645467-68 (EN), 0231430-31 (KH).

[17] E3/7695, at 00275816 (FR), 00236716 (KH), 00239486 (EN).

[18] E3/7823, at 00632715 (FR), 00645467 (EN), 00231430 (KH).

Featured Image: Witness Chan Tauy (ECCC: Flickr)