Witness Corroborates Account on Phnom Kraol Security Center

Today, March 11 2016, witness Net Savat gave his testimony in relation to Phnom Kraol Security Center. He told the Court about his one-month detention and gave evidence in relation to the authority structure of Sector 105. He was detained at the office at the same time as yesterday’s witness Chan Tauy.

 

Minorities in Mondulkiri Province

The Trial Chamber Greffier confirmed the presence of all parties, with Nuon Chea following the proceedings form the holding cell. Today, witness 2-TCW-817 will be heard with no witness being on the reserve.

Witness Net Savat, alias Net Tha, was born in 1942 in Laos. He was born in Koh Ma Bak Village, Namnao Commune, Kengkang District, Sovannakhet Province in Laos and moved to Piem Chi Miet in Mondulkiri when he was ten years old, where he also currently resides.

 

Senior Assistant Prosecutor Dale Lysak started his line of questioning by seeking information about Mondulkiri Province in the 1970s. He wanted to know whether it was a highly populated area back then. Mr. Savat said that there was a “large population” living there, but he did not know how many thousands. Mr. Lysak read an excerpt of another witness who had said that around 19,000 lived in Mondulkiri.[1] The witness confirmed this and said that he number was above 10,000. He confirmed that there were quite a few minorities who lived in Mondulkiri. He said that around six to seven percent of the population in Mondulkiri belonged ethnic minorities. The Khmer language was generally used. The Phnorng language was also spoken. There were other languages that were spoken, including the Laotian and Jarai languages.

 

Persons of authority in the sector

Mr. Lysak said that he had told the investigators that he joined the revolution in 1966 with a person called Phan Khon alias Chuon.[2] The witness said that he joined it in 1967 or 1968. He was persuaded by Ta Horm and Ta Kham Phoun. He was “inducted into the party” in 1970. Kham Phoun and Horm introduced him. Mr. Lysak wanted to know whether he ever saw any senior leaders who travelled through Mondulkiri. He said that he did so: he was appointed a messenger and had to escort guests sometimes. In 1970 he was appointed to be part of the economic unit to purchase unhusked rice and corn. Later, he was appointed to be part of the economic section in a hospital. He escorted Kham Phoun and Horm.

Mr. Lysak tried to refresh the witness’s memory by reading an excerpt of his statement, in which he had said that he also escorted Nuon Chea and Pol Pot’s wife.[3] The witness confirmed this. He accompanied him once. Ta Thuyt and Ta Khorn travelled together. His task was to accompany them from tonlé to another location. He accompanied them back and forth. They were with Ta Horm and Phean who said that they were Nuon Chea and someone else. They did not tell him directly, but he overheard a conversation.

Mr. Lysak asked who the chairman was of the economic office that he worked for in 1970. He said that it was Ta Kham Phoun. Mr. Savat worked there from 1970 until 1976. Mr. Lysak wanted to know who San Tharn was, since the witness had mentioned this person in the interview. He answered that he was secretary of the economic unit. Kham Phoun was the sector committee and had the overall responsibility for economy. The witness was in the economic unit together with San Tharn.

Kham Phoun was in a different office. Mr. Savat was responsible for economic affairs at Koh Nhek.

Mr. Lysak wanted to know whether he worked at the office K-16. He replied that he worked in office K-21. Office K-16 was for Kham Phoun and also responsible for economy.

The hospital that he worked at later belonged to the sector. The location was in what is today Number 9 Village. Mr. Lysak inquired whether this was the same location as where Office K-21 was located, which the witness confirmed.

Ta Horm had overall supervision over the hospital. Ta Pha and Neang Bor Lay were also responsible for that hospital.  The hospital was around one kilometer away from Office K-17.

Mr. Lysak wanted to know whether he was a relative of Northeast Zone Secretary Ya, who was also known as Maen San. He said that Ya married his younger sister. Her birth name was Net Thma. Her current name was Net Voeun. They married in 1968. He met Ta Ya in a forest and then in Toul Kork area in a hospital. He also went to his residence. He was assigned to be responsible for the Northeast within Kratie. He met him when he was in a hospital and then went back to Mondulkiri. He learned that Ya was tied up and killed. He heard about this from others. Her sister had sent him a letter in which she said that she wanted to live in Mondulkiri. From that time, he had not heard about his sister. “I felt pity on her, since I heard that her husband suffered. However, she together with two children survived.” One time, he thought that she may not survive the period, since he had never received any news from her.

Mr. Lysak referred to the witness’s DC-Cam statement, in which he had said that his sister was arrested.[4] He confirmed this. He said that she was arrested later than her husband. He has never seen his sister again.

 

Arrest

Next, Mr. Lysak wanted to know whether he had been arrested and if yes, when and why. He replied that he was arrested in January 1977 for one month. His children, his nieces and nephews were all detained for one month. They were all released later and assigned to work in worksites. They were at the worksite for two months and were freed by the Vietnamese later in 1979. “It was said that they had links to the Vietnamese”, which was why they were arrested. He said that they could not have any relations to the Vietnamese, since they did not even see them. Mr. Lysak wanted to know whether he was arrested before or after the death of Kham Phoun and Horm. He answered that he believed there were conflicts between the two. The witness was a subordinate of Kham Phoun, but he believed that the same happened to the group that belonged to Horm.

Mr. Lysak read out an interview in which he had said that he was arrested after they shot each other to death.[5] He answered that the arrests took place around a week after this incident. He could not recall all the people who were arrested. There were around 80 people who were arrested in total. The majority of the people were arrested were belonging to ethnic minorities.

Mr. Lysak wanted to know more about the people who were arrested. He answered that there was only a small number of people who were related to Kham Phoun, but they were his subordinates.

Kham Phoun’s wife was called Lap and also called Bopha. She also worked in that office. She worked at the economic office K-16. She did not have a major role there. He did not know what happened to her, because he was arrested a week after Kham Phoun and Horm killed each other. He believed that she was also arrested along with her children and other family members. He never saw her again, since he was sent to a worksite when he was released. He was not allowed to travel back to Koh Nhek. Her adopted daughter still lived in Kampong Cham, he said.

Kham Phoun was Laotian and Tompuon.

Bor Lay and Bor Ly were female workers at the hospital at the leadership level who were also arrested. Mr. Lysak wanted to know what Bor Lay’s position was at the hospital and who she was married to. He answered that Bor Lay was chief and therefore his superior. She married Ra. Ra was a nephew of Kham Phoun. Bor Li was in charge of midwifery. Her full name was Bor Li Thon. She married Svay. She came from Ratanakiri and was Tompuon.

When he was arrested, he was taken to K-17 on a vehicle. Upon his arrival, they were instructed to stand and were tied up. They placed them into the corner of the house. At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.

 

Other arrestees

After the break, the witness recounted that sixty, seventy or eighty people were transported in a vehicle, including his family. Bor Lay was transported in the same vehicle as him. He met Bor Lay in the detention facility. She was detained for half a month. After this, she was transported elsewhere. He did not know where she was sent to afterwards. He has never seen her again since then.

Mr. Lysak said that he referred to a circular in his OCIJ interview that he read to the hospital combatants. He asked the witness to describe it. Mr. Savat said that other were going to the location where they were detained to make an announcement, particularly Chuon alias Phan Khon, who used a small loudspeaker. This person made an announcement not to feel afraid. He made an announcement that he was there for the sector. A few days later, his child wanted to relieve him or herself and called Chuon. The security guards asked her why she called Chuon, since he was the one who also betrayed the regime.

Mr. Lysak read an excerpt of his interview in which he had said that he received a circular about smashing the first category enemies, detaining second category enemies and sending third category enemies to the cooperatives.[6] He was given a document telling the female and male combatants in Office 80.

He felt a little bit shocked when he saw the vehicle when he was to be arrested. Mr. Lysak asked what the document said about the categories of enemies. The witness recounted that the document said that there were three groups of enemies, but did not say which ones.

Mr. Lysak then read an excerpt and asked whether he knew Ta Sa.[7] He answered that Ta Sarun was the sector committee. It was the policy of the center to arrest the enemies that fell into the categories. After the arrests soldiers from the division were sent guard the detainees. The soldiers were armed. There were around eight to ten of them who guarded them. The building that he was detained at was on the ground floor. There was concrete floor and the walls were made of wooden planks. It was a two-story building. The walls were made of corrugated iron. He was detained on the ground floor. Some were on the upper floor. Their hands were tied behind their back. There was a table in the back of the building for them to sit down and have a meeting. They were tied up and put in a row. He heard the sound of shackles from upstairs. The detainees on the ground floor were tied up but not shackled.

He saw the shackles at some point. They were wooden. The detainees had one of their ankles shackled. He had seen the shackles before his detention. Ta Horm had taken him upstairs. Ta San, the chief of the division, was detained there together with other people from the division. He did not know who was in charge of the K-17 Office when he was detained there. He did not see Ta Sarun there. Neither did he see Ta Sopheap there. He saw him only later when he worked at a worksite.

He recounted that Son Tharn, Tha, Ra, Voeung and Kem Chan were there. Mr. Lysak wanted to know who Kem Chan was. He answered that he was district committee. Ra was also part of the district committee and the deputy. His superior was detained at the upper floor. He was overall in charge of the ministry of economics. Tha and Son Thorn were detained at the upper floor. Ra was the deputy secretary of the Koh Nhek District. He did not know whether they had been taken away before or after his release.

When Mr. Lysak asked him whether he was interrogated after his arrival, he replied that he had not been tortured and that he did not know about the interrogation of the people who were detained upstairs. Mr. Lysak quoted his interview, since he had talked about interrogations there.[8] Mr. Savat said that he was questioned once, as was everyone. He was asked by the interrogators who inducted him into the party, to which he answered that it was Kham Phoun. He did not know who questioned him and could only recall that they were from the division. The chief was Theu.

Mr. Lysak wanted to know whether he had heard anything about executions and if yes, where these people were taken to for executions. He answered that he did not know. He recounted that some detainees were taken away on a vehicle. This prompted Mr. Lysak to read an excerpt of his statement. He had said that people were executed elsewhere.[9] Mr. Savat replied that other people had told him about this, but he personally did not witness it.

Mr. Lysak wanted to know whether he knew what happened to Chuon after the witness was arrested and detained at K-17. He answered that Chuon was not detained at K-17 but maybe in Kratie. He came into the building where he was detained and made an announcement regarding the traitors and that they should not be afraid.

Next, Mr. Lysak requested permission to show a document that indicated a number of people from Mondulkiri who had entered S-21.[10] The request was granted. Mr. Lysak pointed to number 128, which identified Phan Khon alias Chuon. Mr. Lysak asked whether this was the same Chuon that they had been talking about earlier, which the witness confirmed. When Mr. Lysak wanted to know whether there was any reason for Chun’s arrest and whether he was loyal to the revolution, international Nuon Chea Defense Counsel Victor Koppe objected. Mr. Lysak referred to his interview and wanted to know what he had meant when saying that Chuon was a “real revolutionary”.[11] Mr. Savat replied that he was interrogated at the detention center about Chuon.

Mr. Lysak pointed to number 129 on the list: Si Korng alias Bor Li, who was the deputy chief of midwife and the wife of Svay. He wanted to know whether this was one of the persons he had identified as being arrested in November 1977. He replied that he did not see her when he was arrested, since she was not detained in the same building. He said that it was likely that this was the same person, since the age corresponded. With this, Mr. Lysak finished his examination.

 

Judge Jean-Marc Lavergne asked for clarification for number 58 (this might have been a translation error and actually referred to number 128), since the French and English transliteration differed: In English, it was spelled Phan Khuon, whereas the French version read Phan Yoeun. Mr. Koumjian said that they would look into this issue.

The floor was granted to the Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyers. Marie Guiraud said that he had said that people also spoke other languages. The witness confirmed that he could also speak the Laotian language. He said that he spoke Lao when speaking to his family members. When he saw Khmer people, he would speak Khmer to them. The language was not prohibited, but Khmer was the main language at the time.

His wife and children were arrested with him. There were seven of them. His oldest son was around 17 or 18 years old. The youngest child was now over thirty years old this year. He was born in 1981 or 1982. His youngest son was around two years old at the time. They had meals in the detention center and could not go out. “No one cleaned the detention center. The food condition was not good. We had pumpkin at the time for the entire month together with rice. No meat, no fish. We were given a small bowl of meal with merely one piece of meat or two pieces of meat.” The food conditions were “very bad”. They were allowed to take a bath once a week. They were walked to that place. The string was untied in the beginning. While being at the bathing place, one of their hands was released from the string. After bathing, they wore their clothes and then they were walked to the building again, where their ankles and hands were tied again. “Fish was everywhere, meat was everywhere, but we were deprived”. They did not dare to protest. At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for lunch.

 

Admission of document into evidence

After the break, the President requested reactions to a request by the Nuon Chea Defense Team to request document E319/23.4.1 into evidence. Nuon Chea Defense Counsel Victor Koppe said that it was the DC-Cam statement of upcoming witness 2-TCW-840, who was called to testify in relation to Au Kanseng Security Center. The witness had already been called to testify earlier. This witness was relevant for questions they wanted to put questions to the expert next week, since he said that Sao Phim planned to overthrow Pol Pot already in 1975. This witness had also said that only nine faithful members remained faithful.[12] Thus, there were numerous reasons to admit this into evidence.

Senior Assistant Co-Prosecutor Dale Lysak said he had doubts how a witness who held no position in the East Zone could say much about Sao Phim’s role, but since it was the statement of an upcoming witness they had no objections. Neither the Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyers nor the Khieu Samphan Defense Team had objections.

 

 

Back to the witness

She returned to the month of detention and asked whether he observed that some of the persons with whom he was detained fell sick, and if yes, what diseases they had. Mr. Savat replied that villagers did not have any diseases for that entire month. She said that yesterday’s witness had said that he was detained at the same time at the same floor and who had talked about skin diseases. Mr. Savat confirmed that Chan Tauy was detained with him. “I don’t think they had skin diseases, but I may have forgotten that”, today’s witness said.

She then inquired about his children. He replied that his five children were with him in the same building. “In fact, we were in different places”. There were some children on the ground floor. “Some were younger than my two year-old baby”, he said.

He was removed from the detention center with a vehicle. This vehicle drove northwards and included men and women. He estimated that twenty or thirty were sent to work at a worksite. There were no guards during the journey. There were leading guards, but no security guards. They were prevented from going to the east of Koh Nhek. He started to hate Koh Nhek from that time onwards.

Ta Om Sy was on the vehicle leading them to the worksite and he heard that he is already diseased by now. The driver of the vehicle was the one who introduced them to the ones who were at the worksite. With this, Ms. Guiraud finished her line of questioning and the floor was given to the Nuon Chea Defense Team.

Mr. Koppe asked when his sister married Ya. Mr. Savat said that this took place in 1968 organized by Angkar. He met Ya once in Toul Kork in Phnom Penh and afterwards in Kratie, after which he went back to Koh Nhek. Ya went to Koh Nhek in Mondulkiri once. It was known at Phnom Kraom once.

As for Koy Tuon, his name was known as Kun. He made regular visits to the area. His name was changed to Tuych later, the witness said. He heard that he was in charge of the North Zone. He had never seen him after 1970. The witness did not know the relationship between Koy Tuon and Ya. To his account, Koy Tuon took place in 1976, while Ya’s arrest might have been arrested in late 1977 or earlier, but certainly after Koy Tuon’s arrest. Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether he had ever heard that Ya ordered Koy Tuon to poison Pol Pot and Nuon Chea. At this point, Mr. Lysak objected and said it was a leading question. Mr. Koppe referred to a black paper.[13] This did not mention specific sources, Mr. Koppe said, after Judge Lavergne asked for clarification.

Mr. Koppe moved on and wanted to know what the relation between Ya and Tyv Ol was, which the witness did not know. The witness did not know Chan Chakrei. Neither had he heard of Keo Meas.

Next, Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether there was any relationship between Sao Phim and Ya, which the witness did not know. He never saw Sao Phim, since he was in a senior position.

Moving to his next topic, namely the killing of Horm, Mr. Koppe wanted to know what he knew about Horm’s death. He answered that he did not witness the event and only heard people say that Ta Horn and Ta Kham Phoun killed each other in Phnom Penh. The witness confirmed having heard that Kham Phoun killed Ta Horn with a piece of iron that he got from a car. Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether he heard that Kham Phoun was killed or committed suicide, which the witness did not know. Mr. Koppe said that he had said to DC-Cam that they had “absolute trust in each other” and that they were like brothers. When Mr. Koppe asked for the source of this knowledge, Mr. Lysak interjected and asked for the ERN references, which Mr. Koppe provided.[14] The witness said that he observed them treating each other as brothers. Also, they were related. “So I could not make out what happened after the event of the killing.” The witness did not know the reasons for the killing.

Mr. Koppe then asked what made the witness say that he was subordinate to Kham Phoun. The witness answered that he worked under his directions and that Kham Phoun provided him with education and training and appointed him with a junior leadership at some point. Mr. Koppe asked whether it was correct that the witness’s wife was the aunt of Kham Phoun’s wife. The witness answered that Kham Phoun’s wife was the aunt of his wife. When Mr. Koppe wanted to ask whether it was fair to say that he was in Kham Phoun’s network, Mr. Lysak interjected and asked him to explain what he meant by network. Mr. Koppe said that the term was neutral enough. The objection was sustained. Mr. Koppe said that he had referred to “the contemptible Horm” in his statement.[15] He wanted to know whether he had said so. Mr. Savat said that he never called him by this term.

Turning to his next topic, Mr. Koppe asked about the three categories of enemies that he had mentioned earlier. He answered that he saw the document and that he was instructed to distribute it to the combatants at the hospital. He did not know what the categories meant. When he was arrested, he thought of the categories. Mr. Koppe read an excerpt of another document, in which the categories were set out.[16] Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether this was something he had also read in the circular. Mr. Savat replied that he could not recall further details than what he had told the Court earlier. Mr. Koppe asked whether it was fair to say that he was seen as a category 2 person, which the witness confirmed.

 

Rebellions

Moving to his next subject, Mr. Koppe asked about Svay and his wife Bor Li and Si Torng. Mr. Koppe wanted to know why they had been arrested or escaped. As for Svay and his wife, he said that they were accused of having connections to Vietnam. As a result, his wife was also arrested. Mr. Koppe asked whether he knew if Bor Li and her husband were really involved in working closely with Vietnam. Mr. Savat said that he did not know about this. There was a brief discussion about the sources Mr. Koppe needed to cite, to which he answered that he was referring to DC-Cam statement summaries.[17] Mr. Koppe then wanted to know whether he had heard about a rebellion movement, during which Vietnamese military was secretly brought in the territory of Democratic Kampuchea and was also known as the Kham Phoun movement. Mr. Lysak said that Mr. Koppe should not characterize movements. Mr. Koppe referred to the source for this.[18] He then repeated the question. The witness said that he had not heard about this.

Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether Bor Li and Svay involved in rebellious activities.[19] He recounted that Svay fled and secretly returned with a hand gun. He was “fixing a machine”. The witness’s combatant was fired upon by Svay. At another point he opened fire at a garage and then fled to a forest. Later he heard that he hung himself and died. However, he did not see him bring in Vietnamese troops. Mr. Koppe referred to another witness’s DC-Cam statement, in which Kham Phoun and Svay were arrested for an alleged plot, since they had secretly brought in Vietnamese into the country.[20] Mr. Koppe asked for reaction to this statement. At this point, Mr. Lysak interjected and said that counsel had characterized it. The first quote was referring to locals fighting against the Vietnamese, and in the second quote the witness had talked about allegations against the two people. Mr. Koppe disagreed with the objection and said that the witness had been very specific about the Kham Phoun movement. Mr. Koppe repeated his question. Mr. Savat said that he had not known about the Kham Phoun movement or about Vietnamese entering the area. This prompted Mr. Koppe to refer to his DC-Cam interview. The interviewer had given him a confession, and the witness had said independently from the confessions that weapons were hidden.[21] Again, Mr. Lysak objected to the use of this part of the interview. He argued that the witness had read confessions and occasionally made comments to the confession.[22] He said that this entire questioning was inadmissible under the rules of the Court. Moreover, it was unclear what the witness was speaking to. Mr. Koppe disagreed, because he had asked open questions before. There followed a brief discussion about whether this part was admissible. The President announced that the issue was deferred and that the Chamber would take a short break.

 

Ruling

After the break, the floor was granted to Judge Lavergne to make an oral ruling regarding the use of the extract of the DC-Cam statement.[23] The objection was sustained. He said that everything that was between the brackets was from Net Savat directly, but everything else was the confession. Mr. Koppe said that it seemed like the answer he had read were directly from Savat. Moreover, he queried the use of the documents when OCIJ investigators had used confessions. Mr. Lysak said that counsel had attempted to use a blackpaper, which was a piece of propaganda and based on confessions.[24] Mr. Koppe said that confessions could be used when prudently done sometimes. He repeated that he did not understand the ruling, since it was Net Savat’s answer. The President announced that the issue had been ruled upon and he should move on.

 

Further persons of authority

Mr. Koppe moved on and asked what he knew about Division 920. The witness answered that he did not know anything about it. Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether he had ever heard of Chhin, who was the Division 920 commander. The witness said that he knew someone called Sin, but only saw this person and did not meet him. Mr. Koppe inquired whether he was involved into bringing Vietnamese troops into Democratic Kampuchea territory, which the witness denied. Mr. Koppe said that the witness had confirmed it in his statement.

Mr. Koppe then wanted to know whether he had heard of the person called Oeun of Division 310, which the witness denied. Mr. Koppe asked whether he had heard of plans to attack the Phnom Penh radio station, the Pochentong airport and a coup, which the witness denied again. National Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyer Pich Ang asked for sources, to which Mr. Koppe replied that he relied on several statements of members of Division 310.

Next, Mr. Koppe asked whether he knew who Son Sen was. The witness denied this. Mr. Koppe said that Son Sen was talking to various leaders and said that the key plan of the “enemy of the East […] was to attack from the inside” through the “traitorous forces” around Ya, Chakrei and others.[25] Mr. Koppe inquired whether he had any knowledge of the Vietnamese trying to attack Democratic Kampuchea by using internal collaborators. Mr. Savat said that he did not know about this.

Turning to his last questions, Mr. Koppe inquired whether the witness had heard of the organization called FURO. Mr. Savat replied that he heard people talk about FURO, but he did not know what FURO was involved in. Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether he knew of FURO Champa, which the witness did not. This prompted Mr. Koppe to refer to the witness’s statement in which he had talked about FURO who struggled against Vietnam to regain the territory Champa.[26] The witness said that he had not said this and did not remember. He insisted that he did not say this in the statement. Lastly, Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether he had heard of the Khmer Sar (White Khmer). The witness said that he did not see any White Khmer and did not know anything about them. “Are you tired, Mr. Witness?”, Mr. Koppe asked. The witness confirmed this.

The floor was then handed to the Khieu Samphan Defense Team. Anta Guissé asked him to clarify the number of time that he was interviewed. He affirmed this. Turning to his first interview, she wanted to know whether he was the only person in the room during the interview. He replied that only he was there. Ms. Guissé said that there were times where someone, she believed it was Tauy, was also present.[27] Mr. Lysak said that it was only on the third day that the other person’s presence was recorded. He replied that he was given a piece of document for him to read in 1998, which was about the story of Ta Chuon. After reading this document, he had been asked whether this story was true and he had said yes. Chan Tauy was there, but he did not say anything, Mr. Savat recounted. He said that he could not remember well what he said, since it took place a long time ago. Ms. Guissé said that a number of documents were mentioned in his interview, which corresponded to confessions or biographies.[28] She asked whether he recalled having documents shown to him.

Turning to his arrest, she said that he had mentioned January 1977, while he had spoken about November 1977 in his statement. He replied that he was arrested in January 1977 for a month, after which he was transferred to a worksite. He denied that it was in November. He mentioned the name Phak.[29] She asked who Phak was, since he had mentioned Ta Pheak in his statement. She asked whether this was the same person. He answered that his name was Phat. The vehicle belonged to the state and another person drove it. Ta San’s division from the upper level was responsible. He saw them coming to gather them. He did not know how the soldiers were assigned to perform the tasks. He learned this from other “youngsters”. Asked who he referred to, he said that he meant his co-detainees.[30]

She wanted to know who the head of the K-17 detention center was. He replied that he did not know about this issue, since he was detained at that issue. He guessed that it might have been Ta Sarun, but he could not confirm that he was Sector 105 secretary. She said that he had been asked in his interview what Ta Sarun’s position was. He said that he was sector chief. She asked whether this refreshed his memory. He could not recall who replaced him.

She then turned to the description of the K-17 building as having two floors. She asked him to confirm the location of this building in relation to Phnom Kraol. He replied that there was a small dam. There was a road connected to Kratie. The bigger dam was two the north and south of the mountain. The office was located in the northwest and not in the north, he said. There was a stream surrounding Phnom Kraol. The office was on the other side of a small dam.

She then inquired about the people who were detained with him. She could not provide more clarity to this.

At this point, the President adjourned the hearing. It will resume Monday, March 14 2016, with the testimony of expert witness 2-TCE-88.

 

[1] E3/5178.

[2] E3/7695.

[3] E3/7695, at 00236715 (KH), 00239485-86 (EN), 00274815 (FR).

[4] E3/7696, at 00231537 (KH), 00384159 (EN), 00384264 (FR).

[5] E3/7695, at 00236715 (KH), 00239486 (EN), 00274816 (FR).

[6] E3/7695, at 00236716 (KH), 00239487 (EN), 00274817 (FR).

[7] E3/367, at 00251440-41 (KH), 00278697 (EN), 00486013 (FR).

[8] E3/7696, at 00231542 (KH), 00384164 (EN), 00384268 (FR).

[9] E3/7696, at 00231531 (KH), 00384152 (EN), 00384258 (FR).

[10] E3/1645.

[11] E3/7695, at 00236713 (KH), 00239484 (EN), 00274814 (FR).

[12] 01079524 (EN), 01079526 (EN).

[13] E3/266, at 00082542 (EN).

[14] At 00384116 (EN).

[15] At 00384111 (EN).

[16] E3/13, minutes of a meeting of secretaries and deputy secretaries, 9 October 1976, at 00940354 (EN), 00344983 (FR), 00052413-14 (KH).

[17] E3/7960.

[18] Ibid., at 00450295-96 (EN), 0073899 (FR), 00851666 (KH).

[19] Ibid., at page 15: 00450280 (EN), 00763882 (KH).

[20] ibid., at page 00450295 (EN), 0073898-99 00851665-666 (KH).

[21] E3/7696, at 00384186 (EN), 00231565 (KH), 00384289 (FR).

[22] 00384165 (EN), 000231543 (KH), 00384268 (FR).

[23] 00384164 (EN).

[24] 00082542 (EN).

[25] E3/13, 00652406 (KH), 00334976 (FR).

[26] E3/7696, at 00384134-35 (EN), 00231511-12 (KH).

[27] E3/7696.

[28] E3/7695, at 00274813 (FR), 00236713 (KH), 00239483 (EN).

[29] E3/7696, at 00384217 (FR), 00231486 (KH), 00384111 (EN).

[30] E3/7696, at 00384227 (FR), 00384120 (EN), 00231496 (KH).