Witness Confirms Execution of Jarai Minority Group

Today’s witness, a former member of the committee at Au Kanseng Security Center who was responsible for taking notes during interrogations, gave the Court insight into living and detention conditions at the center. He confirmed that torture was used in the prison and that detainees were executed. A number of prisoners died of malnutrition or diseases, he said. He confirmed the account of previous witness Phan Thol that a group of approximately 100 Jarai was taken to the center, executed and buried in a B-52 pit close to a jackfruit plantation.

 

Submissions and responses

All parties were present, with Nuon Chea following the hearing from the holding cell. Trial Chamber President Nil Nonn announced that witness 2-TCW-900 would be heard in relation to Au Kanseng Security Center via audiovisual link. The witness was in Anlong Veng District, Oddar Meanchey Province in the presence of a duty counsel.

The President announced that there had been a request by the Co-Prosecutors in relation to the questioning of 2-TCW-900. They had sought to admit several documents, amongst which there was a document that was relevant to this witness.[1] The document was admitted and given a new number.[2]

Next, the President announced that responses to a request by the Prosecution to hear additional witnesses in relation to Phnom Kraol would be heard.[3] These had the numbers 2-TCCP-1016 and 2-TCW-1017 and were requested in order to fill-in for deceased witnesses.

The floor was then given to the Co-Prosecutors. Senior Assistant Prosecutor Dale Lysak explained that they had requested to call these new witnesses, since they had been informed that three of the six scheduled witnesses were deceased. Civil Party 2-TCCP-1016 was a former soldier who had been detained. The witness was a daughter of a sector secretary and was believed by the Prosecution to be more informative than her brother, who had been called by the Chamber, since she was eight years older than her brother. The Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyers did not have any objection.

Nuon Chea Defense Counsel Victor Koppe said that they had no objection in general, but pointed out that paragraph 4 of the request said that the sister should be heard in lieu of or in addition to the brother. He said that it was important for the defense to call both siblings and not to substitute the brother with the sister. Moreover, he said that the Defense Team would file a request soon to call another witness.

Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel Anta Guissé then said that they objected to the request on two grounds. The first point related to general principles, while the second one referred to the specific witnesses. Ms. Guissé argued that it was a tardy request and should have been submitted before the segment had already started. She said that the defense team considered this “an attempt to adjust what had been said” before. Rule 87 was foreseen for exceptional circumstances and required that they were new witnesses or it was found out that witnesses could provide new information that was not available before. She said that this posed a problem of preparation and did not respect the principle of equality of arms. Ms. Guissé further submitted that the Chamber only considered witnesses à priori when these were proposed by the OCP.

For her second point, she said that she did not know why this witness had any particularly relevant information on the Phnom Kraol Security Center, since she had not worked there and only worked there in 1974 when it was a security office. Moreover, she did not talk about purges of Cham or Vietnamese. Thus, it would be “a waste of time” to call this witness.

As for the Civil Party, she said that he was an ex-soldier of the division. She said that the application was not complete and that Phnom Kraol was not mentioned in it. This would not provide any additional evidence, Ms. Guissé said, and was therefore an attempt by the Prosecution to prolong the proceedings.

The Co-Prosecutors were then given opportunity to respond to the replies. Mr. Lysak said that when talking about substituting someone they were referring to the people who were deceased and not in substitution of the brother. They did not request to substitute the brother with the sister. Moreover, he said that the request was not tardy. Moreover, the segment had only started already because it had been moved forwarded due to scheduling issues with the other segments. As for the argument that only witnesses were considered that were proposed by the Co-Prosecutors, he said that Nuon Chea Defense Team had suggested witnesses in the middle of segments several times already.

As for the relevance of the witness, he said that the security office was clearly mentioned: it described Phnom Kraol Security Center and was therefore relevant. With regards to the Civil Party, he said that people who were at the security office had knowledge about the security center, since they were all within a range of a kilometer. She would have knowledge about instructions by the center, since she worked at the telegram office during that time.

Ms. Guissé replied that the requests by the Nuon Chea Defense Team and Khieu Samphan Defense Team had been made as responses to requests by the Co-Prosecutors. The President thanked the parties for their submissions.

 

New Witness: 2-TCW-900

The President then announced that the upcoming witness was questioned by the Co-Investigators and fell in the Category-A group. The President instructed the parties to use his pseudonym when referring to him. The witness then confirmed the accuracy of the information indicated in his Written Record of Interview. He also confirmed that he had taken an oath. He said that there were some points that differed from his recollection.

Senior Assistant Prosecutor Vincent de Wilde started his line of questioning by asking when he joined the revolution and who his superior he was. He replied that he became a soldier in 1971 He was in Regiment 31 first. His commanders mostly came from Hanoi. Their names were Ta Chhang and Ta Sa. He then said that he was soldier from 1970 until 1975.

Regiment 39 belonged to the Center and not to any other division. Their headquarters was close to Phnom Santuk in Kampong Thom Province. They conducted operations close to this place.

Later, Regiment 39 was stationed to stay in the Northwest of Phnom Penh. Regiment 82 was under Division 801. Division 801 used that number after the liberation. During that period, Regiment 81 and 82 were under Division 14.

San was the commander of Division 14. When they started to be engaged in battlefield 990, the commander in charge was Saroeun from the South. Division 14 was posted to protect Phnom Penh from the location from the railway station close to Pochentong to the west. The headquarters was in the Olympic Stadium.

There was a meeting at Olympic Stadium, but he was not present at the time, since he was stationed elsewhere. He was not allowed in when he went at night to watch a performance. This prompted Mr. de Wilde to read out an excerpt of his interview, in which he had said that he had met someone at a meeting in Olympic Stadium.[4]

He replied that he never attended a rally held at Olympic Stadium when he was in Division 801. He was a radio operator at the time and was responsible for setting up chairs, drinking water, and the like.

He attended a meeting in October or November 1975 in Rattanakiri. After he left, Division 14 was renamed Division 801. He was one of the first soldiers who was sent to the Northeast with Ta San. The division was stationed along the border area of Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia and also on National Road 19. He did not know the changes within the Northeast Zone, but only about the changes of Division 801. There were regiments subordinate to Division 801 that were stationed at various locations. They had to protect the border area.

He was stationed first at Banlung in a former Lon Nol military barrack. There was an office near Au Kanseng, but he had not been there.

At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.

 

Authority structures

After the first break, Mr. de Wilde asked who Ta Saroeun’s immediate superior was. The witness replied that he did not know. The headquarters were located in Son Sen’s office. One month after Ta Saroeun’s arrival in Rattanakiri, he went to Phnom Penh sometimes.

Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether Ta Saroeun had to communicate with the Center or headquarters regarding important matters. He replied that they used secret codes and that his task was to send these. Ta Saroeun requested advice from the upper echelon.

Asked whether Ta Saroeun also asked about instructions regarding external or internal enemies, he said that he once saw something in a letter. They had to deliver the letter. He did not see the content of the letter.

The witness was in charge of recording the messages and delivering them. He did not know the full content. He did not know whether the letter he delivered was a confidential letter.

He confirmed that the headquarters were at Banlung at first and then to Veun Sai. The headquarters were moved.

Mr. de Wilde asked whether it was correct that he married on the 20 March 1977 as indicated in his statement. Ta Cheng was the head of logistics in Banlung.

 

Cadres working at the security center

Half a month after his arrival at Ta Cheng’s location, an individual called Ta Se arrived there. Say was the chief of the location there. Tim, who was part of unit 806, became a deputy chief, while the witness became a member.

Mr. de Wilde read out an excerpt of his statement. He had said that Ta Chheng led the center at first, that Ta Se took over his duties and was a commander later, that the witness was interrogation commander and that Tim was deputy commander.[5] He recounted that he himself was responsible for recording the answers and confessions by the detainees and that Ta Tym was in charge of the security guards at the center.

There were not more than ten people working in that office.

Mr. de Wilde referred to the statement by commander Chhaom Se (2-TCW-840). He had said that three cadres and nine security guards were working at the office.[6] The witness said that he remembered the names of the guards Lay, Chuob, Nhol Ouy, Chang, Set and Ta Tin,

Ta Se had directly relations with the upper echelon. The detention unit was under supervision of Battalion 806. Ta Se would report first to the commander of Battalion 806. He did not know whether he met Ta Saroeun in person. He knew that Ta Se went to the battalion office. Ta Se was always present during interrogations and interrogated the prisoners. The witness was responsible for taking notes of the responses.

Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether he knew a guard called Tim. The witness replied that he only knew someone called Tin.

Lai was a person who came from a “handicapped unit” that was assigned around Au Kanseng office. He was also assigned a few tasks in the office. Mr. de Wilde had said that he had told the investigators that Lai had been a prisoner at Au Kanseng and was assigned to interrogate Vietnamese people.[7] He replied that Lai knew how to speak Vietnamese. He was subsequently sent to Au Kanseng as a prisoner. Since it was difficult for the witness to record responses from Vietnamese prisoners, Lai was used to interpret responses. Lai was still considered a prisoner, but “we used him”, since they had problems understanding the responses by Vietnamese prisoners. Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether it was correct that there were two people: one called Lay, who was a security guard, and Lai who was the interpreter. The witness confirmed this.

Besides the forces from Division 801, there were also two security forces from the center. The two individuals from the Center were under the supervision of Tin.

Tyn was assigned to guard the prisoners.

He wanted to know whether he knew a prisoner called Phan Thol, which the witness denied. Mr. de Wilde read out the answer by Phan Thol at his testimony of March 2, 2016. He had said that he guarded a jackfruit plantation. The witness replied that they were sent to plough rice and such tasks. The security guards were the only one of digging pits and guarding the entire premise of the prison, he said. Mr. de Wilde asked whether they also had time to dig pits and fill them up when also being responsible for guarding all prisoners and being present when they were interrogated. He answered that there was only one guard stationed at the interrogation road. There were three guards who took the prisoners outside to work. He did not know how many guards were assigned to dig up or cover pits, since they usually did that task at night time. Every tenth day, there was an education session. Certain materials were used, including the Revolutionary Youth Flag magazines, covering topics such as “how to make the socialist revolution”.

When there was a meeting to educate the workers, the meeting would focus on the development of the socialist revolution and on the loyalty to the Party.

 

Au Kanseng location

When the office was relocated to Au Kanseng, there were two buildings to the west of the stream. There was a long building to the east, a kitchen hall and another house where he stayed. There were five houses in total and made out of bamboo. There was a building that was make from workers. The building was in a “proper and better condition” and the sleeping quarter was better. This building was to the east of the longer building. There was also a building in which female prisoners were housed. Mr. de Wilde said that another witness had said that there were four building, in each of which there was a group of prisoners consisting of twelve persons at first, but that three more huts were built later.[8] The witness replied that there were buildings that were in better and worse conditions. The interrogation house was not far from the house where he lived, namely less than 100 meters. This interrogation house was not a fully-enclosed house. The wall was made from bamboo. There were no proper walls and there was a forest to the side of the interrogation house.

At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for the lunch break.

 

Prisoners at the center

After the lunch break, the floor was again handed to the Co-Prosecution. Mr. de Wilde said that the witness had indicated that three cadres supervised the office, of who Se was in overall charge, himself being the deputy chairman, and Chang being responsible for the security guards.[9] Mr. de Wilde asked to clarify the matter, since he had previously said that he was only a member of the committee. He answered that his actual role was member, while Chang was the deputy. Ta Saroeun never came to visit Au Kanseng after its establishment.

Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether Ta Smien and perhaps Ta Moeun, being in charge of battalion 806, attended meetings at Au Kanseng. He confirmed this. During this meeting, they were told to prevent prisoners from fleeing. One time, the prisoner Mao escaped to the west of the security center and wanted to go to a village nearby. The villagers there arrested him and returned him to the security center. After he had been returned to the security guards, Mao was placed in a house where prisoners had their ankles shackled. Mao did not die in 1978, but survived. He joined the fighting against the Vietnamese.

When Mr. de Wilde inquired about orders to execute people stemming from Ta Saroeun, Mr. Koppe objected and said this was not an open question. He argued that it had not been established that there was a practice to execute prisoners at all. Mr. de Wilde said that he would return to this topic later.

He then asked whether he ever go to Ta Saroeun’s place while working at Au Kanseng security center. He replied that he visited Ta Saroeun’s wife but never discussed the situation at Au Kanseng at his house. This prompted Mr. de Wilde to read out an excerpt of his Written Record of Interview. The witness had said that he visited Ta Saroeun’s wife at Ta Saroeun’s house.[10] When Mr. de Wilde started reading an excerpt about an arrest by Jarai, Mr. Koppe objected and said that open questions had to be asked first. The objection was overruled, since the Chamber had not yet heard the excerpt and purpose of the question. Mr. de Wilde then read out the excerpt. The witness had said that more than a hundred of Jarai were arrested. At this point, the President interrupted and said that it appeared that he read information about the Jarai to the witness, which was leading. Mr. de Wilde consequently only read out one sentence of the answer, in which he had talked about a meeting with Ta Saroeun. The witness replied that he met Ta Saroeun, during which he had said that there was a person from Phnom Penh. He met him after seeing his wife at Ta Saroeun’s house. He went there with Ta Se.

 

Another security center under Division 801

There was a security center at Phnom Chankek that was under the supervision of Division 801. Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether he confirmed that was run by Ta Vana, which the witness did. He did not know the reasons for the establishment of the center. People were assigned to grow vegetables there. There was no transfer from people from Au Kanseng security center to the von form Ta Vana. The people were workers from units and soldiers. The people who were detained at the Au Kanseng Security Center were from the battalion or platoon and ordinary combatants. The people who transferred people to Au Kanseng were sent from the regiments.

After the transfer of the combatants, there was an accompanying letter that “these combatants were lazy and stole stuff”. People were sent from the company level to the center. The soldiers who were implicated were those who were “implicated in the responses to Phnom Penh.” He gave the example of Peng Poy, who was on the company level and under the battalion of Lay Sarim. When Lay Sarim was arrested, Peng Pey was also arrested.

Mr. de Wilde quoted an excerpt of the interview of Se, who had said that the center was created for soldiers who were disciplined.[11] He replied that this was correct, since there were people who were brought to the center who were accused of being undisciplined. He agreed that these people were implicated by others. When they were sent to the security center, the center would draw a list of their names, namely the units and locations that they were brought from. When they arrived, the “comrades would question them”, starting from the divisions they were from and the reasons for their arrests. They would sometimes receive a list of names of those who were brought in, including the names, units, and the reasons they were brought in. Sometimes he received information about the trickery they had committed. When Mr. de Wilde asked about accusations of belonging to KTB or CIA agents, he said that he was not shown any document illustrating a point that a person was accused of being a KTB or CIA agent. “No detailed analysis was made against those people, whether they were Vietnamese spies or whether they were agents for CIA or KTB.” When a prisoner confessed being a CIA agent or not, this would be recorded. The majority of the prisoners said that they were CIA agents, but hardly anyone admitted being Vietnamese spies.

Mr. de Wilde read an excerpt of Saroeun that he sent to Uncle Van on 25 November 1976.[12] This report referred to enemy activities. He replied that he was not aware of five organizational matters that the report mentioned, since he “lost contact” in terms of radio communication when he was at the center.

Some of the people who were sent to the security center would fit into the five categories, for example those who were implicated by other people or accused of being lazy. The people were sent through the union chairman named Thum. He met him when he was travelling to Bor Khao. Thum had said that the workers were former workers of the previous regime involved in the production of rubber and that they did not strictly implement Angkar’s instructions. Thum requested them to further question them. The witness did not know how the affection of rubber was affected. The people who were sent from the base or from the union were not tied but walked. They had their backpack on their back and carried their belongings on the head. The ethnic minorities also came with baskets. Soldiers were transported by truck and when they got off the truck, they were not tied or coughed either. There was an instance where one or two soldiers were tied. He knew the person, so he untied his hands, since his hands were swollen. This person was called Dom and was a medic that he knew. When they were sent to Au Kanseng Security Center, they were not shackled, unless they were brought into a special part where they would be coughed. Those who were escorted by armed soldiers would usually be coughed after getting off the vehicle. They would be coughed or chained.

The people were delivered to the security center. Soldiers were brought by trucks. They were in two categories: those from Bor Khao and those who arrived with wounded people.

Mr. de Wilde referred to a former prisoner Khoem, who had said that people were also hand-cuffed and chained during the day.[13]

 

Living conditions at Au Kanseng

Mr. de Wilde then asked whether the roofs were waterproof. He replied that the roof was good. However, it could not prevent the cold from going through the wall. “And those people made fire within the hall”. Some of the people who worked outside made fire inside to warm themselves. There were no mosquito nets for prisoners at night time. Prisoners were told to urinate into the bamboo tube at night. When returning from work at the plantation, they bathed themselves in the river. At night time, they had drinking water in bamboo tubes. Prisoners would share water if someone did not have any water in the bamboo tubes.

Prisoners had malaria, malnutrition or dysentery, which was due to the unclean water. When a prisoner got sick, there was a medic on the compound who provided treatment. The medicine was homemade and made out of herbs and some powder. They also had some form of modern medicine. Some prisoners died of the consequences due to malnutrition and diseases. The prisoners were chained were considered “serious offence prisoners”, but did not face any serious illnesses. Some had a flu or a cold and they would be provided medicine by the medic. He did not see any wounds as a result of being chained.

He did not know what the situation was in 1975, since he was sent there only in 1977 and only stayed there until 1978. There were less than 200 prisoners at some point, but he could not give an exact number. Mr. de Wilde asked for an estimate of the people who died at Au Kanseng Security Center, assuming no transfers. Mr. Koppe objected, saying it was a complicated for the witness to answer and that there was no basis for assuming that there was no transfer. Mr. de Wilde replied that the witness had answered that no transfers took place while Ta Van was the head. He then asked how many people died in total. The witness answered that he could not recall the number, but that there were “not many of them”. He estimated that the number was at around ten. This prompted Mr. de Wilde to refer to his interview, in which he had said that many people died due to malnutrition and diseases and that the prisoners who were ‘eliminated’ following orders numbered around ten. In total he had estimated that several hundred had died.[14] He replied that he was asked how many people died when he was interviewed. He now recalled that he had answered in his interview that he would not acknowledge that the number was in the several thousands. He had said that he could not give them any precise number. When Mr. de Wilde asked why hundreds of people died, Mr. Koppe objected and said that the witness had not confirmed that hundreds of people had died. The objection was overruled. The witness said that he could not give any precise number of percentage of prisoners who died. As for the number of hundreds of prisoners who died, he said now that “that included those who were smashed as well as those who died in the detention center from illnesses”. There were less people who died of diseases than those who were smashed.

 

Confessions

Asked about confessions from Phnom Penh, he said that he never saw these. Only No had confessions from Phnom Penh and interrogated prisoners. The witness was sitting nearby to record the question and answer, but did not have access to the document. He did not ask No from what center these confessions came from. He never saw Se consult with No or the witness himself in relation to confessions from Phnom Penh.

He had talked about instructions by Ta Saroeun about interrogations.[15] The witness said that he could not recall. He received instructions about interrogation techniques. The instructions were to get the prisoner to write his answer. After they received such documents, they could use them to question the prisoner further. Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether Ta Saroeun issued any instruction to use electric wires or beating the prisoners. The witness replied that he never issued instructions on what to do with prisoners who refused to confess. “I only heard from No, who gave instructions to the security guards, that when they had to feed prisoners with rice, the guard should mix with more salt, so that the prisoner should become more thirsty” and then beg the guard for water. If a prisoner asked for water, the guard should tell him to tell the truth to Angkar when being questioned. There were no electric wires or clubs at the interrogation room. Mr. de Wilde pointed to his Written Record of Interview, in which he had said that there was equipment to use electric shocks, which were used on the ethnic Jarai prisoners, and clubs.[16]

The witness now said that the electric shocks were used when the Jarai were sent into the security center. The security guards used the phones to shock the prisoners. Mr. de Wilde quoted the head of the security center, who had said that torture was used sometimes with the aim of obtaining confessions.[17] The witness replied that it was Se’s conclusion regarding torture.

 

Executions

He said that prisoners were taken to be killed mostly at night time. The actual perpetrators, Tim, No, and Nay, were sleeping in different rooms. Prisoners were arrested around 7 or 8 pm. He did not see Tim at the time. Usually, Tim would be present when prisoners were taken away to be killed. He did not know where the prisoners were sent to be killed. Tim was in charge of the prisoners. There were pits to put Jarai and people who had been killed. There was an occasion on which Jarai people had been killed. A few days later, he went to a B-52 pit next to jackfruits and smelled the distinct smell. Thus, he assumed that the Jarai might have been buried there. When the Jarai arrived, there were too many people and the space at the center could not accommodate all Jarai people. After they arrived, however, they were locked. There was an incident where a group of Jarai arrived and there was one or two armed soldiers on each trucks. He did not know how many Jarai there were exactly, but he said that there were more than 100, perhaps 105 or 110. He said that it was during the rainy season. There were sporadic clashes in 1977. At that time, ethnic Jarai were sent to Au Kanseng Security Center.

After the Jarai people were questioned, they “in fact did not reside in Cambodia” and were living in Vietnam instead. Some of the Jarai were in the thirties, while others were below 25 and one or two who were in their late forties. There were not many Jarai. He was not sure whether there were between five and ten women.

Mr. de Wilde commenced to read out a report sent by Vy to ‘respective brother’ of 15 June 1977 that he said related to the same incident.[18] Mr. Koppe interjected and said that it was up to the Chamber to determine whether it related to the same incident. When Mr. de Wilde rephrased his question and requested leave to present the document to the witness, Mr. Koppe objected again and said that the question should be posed in a non-leading way. The objection was overruled.

Mr. de Wilde repeated the date of the telegram and read out that Jarai people were arrested at Au La’ak. Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether the elements of the telegram allowed him to determine whether the group of people described in the telegram corresponded to the group of Jarai that was sent to Au Kanseng. The witness answered that he thought that the testimony in relation to the capture of 204 Vietnamese. He replied that he thought the number was overstated. The security center would have been unable to accommodate the 200 people that were mentioned.

Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether the group that arrived at Au Kanseng was accused of being Vietnamese soldiers. He answered that they were not accused of being Vietnamese soldiers. The Jarai people had not the color of skin of Vietnamese people but more resembled those who were living in Rattanakiri.

After having met Ta Saroeun (Ta 05), he asked him about the management issue and how Au Kanseng Security Center managed the ethnic Jarai. Say reported on the living conditions in the center and the Jarai. Next, Mr. de Wilde read an excerpt of the witness’s interview, in which he had said that they had to “sort out” and kill the Jarai after they had met with Ta Saroeun.[19] The witness replied that he recalled the instructions of Ta Saroeun, in which he had said that they had to “please solve it”. It was their understanding that this meant to kill the Jarai.

The President adjourned the hearing. It will continue tomorrow, March 22 2016, at 9 am with the testimony of this witness 2-TCW-900.

[1] E319/23.3.5

[2] E3/9734.

[3] E390, 16 March 2016.

[4] E3/9734

[5] E3/9734, at answer 6

[6] E3/407, at answer 40.

[7] E3/5512, answer 12.

[8] E3/405

[9] E3/5512, at answer 4.

[10] E3/5607, at answer 8 and E3/5512, at answer 11.

[11] E3/405, at answer 6.

[12] E3/1164, 00052327 (KH), 00532754 (FR), 00516711 (EN).

[13] E3/7684, at p.3 (EN, FR), 00221753 (KH).

[14] E3/406, at answer 6.

[15] E3/5512, answer 5.

[16] E3/5512, at answer 8.

[17] E3/405, at answer 14.

[18] E3/240, 0001266 (KH), 00897665 (EN).

[19] E3/5512, at answer 11.

Featured Image: Witness 2-TCW-900 via audiovisual link (ECCC: Flickr)