“I was not the one who killed people”, Sector 105 Secretary Sao Sarun Tells the Court

Today, March 29 2016, witness Bun Loeng Chauy concluded his testimony. He provided more information about the authority structures in Mondulkiri and gave more detail on his sources of knowledge. Moreover, he spoke about offices K-11, K-16 and K-17 as well as Phnom Kraol Security Center. Next, former Pech Chenda district chief and Sector 105 secretary Sao Sarun took his stance via audiovisual link. He denied having had any knowledge of killings or arrests in Sector 105 when he was the secretary of it, and stressed that he held the position only two months – an allegation that the Co-Prosecution disputes.

 

Functions of the witness at the office

All parties were present with Nuon Chea following the proceedings from the holding cell. The President announced that the remainder of the testimony of witness Bun Loeng Chauy would be heard today, followed by the testimony of 2-TCW-1012 via audiovisual link.

Nuon Chea Defense Counsel Victor Koppe started his line of questioning by asking what his tasks were as a district office deputy secretary, since he had said in his interview that he was district deputy secretary and yesterday that he was district office deputy secretary.

Mr. Koppe was interrupted by the President, who clarified that the Khmer version of the Written Record of Interview clearly stated that he was deputy chief of the Koh Nhek District Office, while the English version left out the word “office.”[1]

He replied that his task was to take staff into the rice field. Sometimes he had other tasks. Their tasks were dependent on the district secretary. They were implement the tasks they were assigned to do. Usually they would deal with the agricultural production. Mr. Koppe asked whether he or his office was ever involved in the arrest of someone. One time, the Kratie district informed them of the arrest of people who were accused of being Khmer Sar. After 1975, he had never seen any communication relating to arrests while he was in the office until 1977. He was not aware of any protocols of interrogation, since he never interrogated anyone and did not have the authority to do so.

Mr. Koppe then wanted to know whether he or the office was involved “in any manner whatsoever” in the execution of anyone. He replied that “nothing happened in such a way” while he was in the district office. Mr. Koppe asked whether it was correct that his office was never involved in the ordering or planning of any executions, which the witness confirmed.  “Prior to February 1977, the situation was normal”. The situation changed when he and a group of 80 people was arrested. He saw one or two instances that related to military communication. Later, he frequently saw Ta Poeu, who was the deputy commander and who communicated with the office about the logistics of the troops. However, the witness did not participate in any meetings discussing this matter. He never heard anything about telegrams.

Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether he knew a 7-Group, “the group of 7” or anything similar in relation to enemy activities, which the witness denied.

 

Former Lon Nol soldiers

Mr. Koppe asked how he was able to say what the fate was of certain ranks of former Lon Nol officials if he was not involved in arrests, interrogations, executions or reading confessions. He replied that he was involved “in that task since that previous time”. In addition, the soldiers used to come by his house who were killed in 1973 “by the Pol Pot group”. He knew some of them very well. Mr. Koppe inquired whether his knowledge related only to pre-1975 or also to after, since he seemed “to have no knowledge at all”. Mr. Lysak interjected and said that Mr. Koppe had mischaracterized the evidence by saying that the war had been ongoing in 1973, since the witness had indicated that the region had been liberated in 1970. Judge Fenz instructed Mr. Koppe to ask the question without testifying himself. Mr. Koppe repeated the question and the witness said that it happened before 1975.

Mr. Koppe read a part of the witness’s testimony yesterday. He had talked about the arrests of cadres and former soldiers.[2] He had also talked about Ta Syn and Ta Ya and the arrests of soldiers.[3] Mr. Koppe asked whether he was sometimes referring to similar ranks to explain that also senior cadres were arrested. He replied that Ta Syn was the commander of Division 920 and Ta Say was his deputy. He only met them once when they had a meeting. He heard that they were arrested during a wave of purge later on. He did not know how many were killed.

He said that there were no former Lon Nol soldiers in Mondulkiri at the time. There were villagers, “but they did not have any issue”. Khmer Rouge killed Khmer Rouge. As for former Lon Nol soldiers, “I don’t think they were killed, because there were no more former Lon Nol soldiers” at the time.

Mr. Koppe then referred to his interview in which he had talked about US bombing.[4] The witness now recalled that it took place from 1969 until 1973. In this period there was rocket shelling and B-52 bombs were dropped.

One village was “completely destroyed” by the bombing. The US bombing did not target the Viet Cong but dropped on villagers’ houses. No one went back to reside in this village. Mr. Koppe said that he had said that only civilians were killed. He replied that rarely Khmer Rouge were killed, but Vietnamese soldiers were. In Rattanakiri 3,000 people were killed, while only 600 were killed in Mondulkiri according to a report by the Khmer Rouge. With this, Mr. Koppe finished his line of questioning.

 

Messenger for Ka Sy and knowledge of the region

The floor was granted to the Khieu Samphan Defense Team. Defense Counsel Anta Guisé inquired about his role as a messenger and wanted to know whether he started working in this position before 1975. He answered that he was his messenger from 1973 until 1975, after which he was appointed to be deputy chief. He was Ka Sy’s messenger. She wanted to know whether it was important as a messenger to know the forest on the ground. He replied that “he was satisfied with my performance and he requested the upper echelon to have me as a messenger”. He said that it was not an easy job. His father was killed, since he had trouble with the Khmer Rouge. He was selected as a messenger, because he was related to Ka Sy. She referred to his statement, in which he had said that he knew the region very well.[5] The witness confirmed this. She asked whether he also knew Koh Nhek very well, to which he replied that Koh Nhek was his birth district. [6] She asked about the stream that the Co-Prosecutor had mentioned (Au Le Poeu) that was supposed to be in Koh Nhek. He replied that there was no such stream in Mondulkiri. He knew Laos and the Jarai language. He knew other languages, but not very well. She wanted to know whether he knew any cadres of an ethnic minority. He answered that that there were different ethnicities. As for ethnic minorities, there were Tompuon, Phnong, Lao, and Jarai.

Horn had a Lao father and a Jarai mother. Laing was Jarai and Ta Sy was Phnong. Lay was Jarai. Laing was mixed: Jarai and Phnong. Bou Li was ethnically Lao.

Ms. Guissé wanted to know what Ta Sareoeun’s position and authority was. He replied that he was promoted to be member of Mondulkiri committee from 1973 onwards. After the killing of Laing and Kham Phoun, he replaced Laing. He was in Pech Chenda District before this. At the time, there were many killings. He was in the position for less than a year before the liberation happened.

He replaced Laing in late 1977 or early 1978. He confirmed that he was at Ro Ya worksite at the time. He requested to be hospitalized at the time. A person picked him up and had a letter with him. He was asked to fill in his name. The letter was sealed and the name was put on the letter. At the worksite, he had to focus on the field and could not walk to any other place freely. Since there was a request from the office chief to send him to the hospital, he was allowed to go to the hospital. The seal had something to do with Ta Sarun, which is how he knew that he had become district secretary. She wanted to know what his sources were to say that Ta Sarun could decide on arrests as he had said in his interview.[7] He replied that after Kham Phoun had killed Ta Laing, the younger brother in law of Ta Laing – Chuon – went around to inform everyone in the worksite. He was arrested a few days later. During the fighting of Kham Phoun and Ta Horn, the network of Ta Horn was Sy and another individual. He did not know whether the members of Horn were assigned by the upper echelon to perform other tasks. After the fighting, the situation was chaotic and the network of Kham Phoun were arrested. Many people were arrested, but some were freed later. Thuch was also killed during that time. “All of them were cadres, namely they were chiefs of offices, or they were part of battalions, regiments”. Ra was the deputy secretary of a district. Bou Lay and Bou Li were also arrested. Later, Bou Li was assigned to be in charge of the district hospital. Revenge took place between the two groups. Kham Phoun fought Horn, because he had killed his child. Nhon was introduced into the party by Ka Sy. He said that there was always an inductor who introduced individuals into the party. If one member of a network was arrested, “all of them could not be freed”.

She wanted to know what function he had when the 80 people were arrested. He replied that he was still at Ro Ya. Chan Thorn’s family was also arrested, including the children, because of Kham Phoun’s network. The arrests took place after Horn and Kham Phoun were arrested. Sophea was at a higher position at the time, but had not been arrested at the time. He did not know who made the decision to arrest them. From what he heard, there was a meeting by a committee, since such a decision could not be made by one individual. She asked whether he did not know exactly who took the decision and therefore only based his assumption on rumors, which the witness confirmed.

At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.

 

K-16, K-17 and K-11

After the break, Ms. Guissé asked him what the office K-16 was and wanted to know whether it had always been a Security Center. He answered that it was not a Security Center but an economic office or an office for agricultural products. It belonged to the deputy head of the province, who was in charge of economics. She then referred to his statement and asked about Ta Mann.[8]  He replied that there was no Ta Mann, but only Ta Man. He was a soldier and deputy of the battalion. Ms. Guissé then said that he had said that they had arrested Ta Man.[9] Mr. Lysak said that the English translation had said that Ta Man’s office was K-11 and not K-16 as the French translation seemed to have suggested.

Ms. Guissé asked to clarify whether Ta Man’s office was located in K-16 or K-11. He replied that he was located close to the prison. Ta Phea was working close to Ta Man’s office, around 100 meters away. His name was actually Ta Maing, he said. The prison was known as Phnom Kraol prison. Ta Man’s office was adjacent to this prison. He did not know whether the office had another name as well. He confirmed that the Phnom Kraol office was managed by soldiers. Ta Meng was the younger brother of Ta Sarun.  Ms. Guissé referred to his statement, in [10] He confirmed that he talked about the same Maing. He did not know whether he held any position within the prison. In his statement, he had talked about Phay as the chief.[11] She asked what the source of his knowledge was. He replied that Phay was prison chief, while Ta Maing was the direct perpetrator to arrest all other prisoners and send them to Ta Phay’s prison. This was his observation. “Maing had the function to go and cleanse any people”. Maing had subordinates who were soldiers. Ms. Guissé asked when he saw that Maing was in charge of arrests and that Ta Phay was in charge of the prison. He replied that those who survived the prison had told him so.

He was not certain when Phnom Kraol was established since he was at Keo Seima. He saw the trees in the forest were cleared. When he was transferred to K-16, he used to walk past the location. When he was the deputy chief of the Keo Seima office, he did not know about the prison. He learned about the prison when large groups of people were arrested, perhaps in February or March 1977.

She asked him to briefly describe the center from what he was able to see from the road. He replied that he saw the roof, but not clearly.  The prison was located close to the dam. He saw the bamboo fence that surrounded the prison. The dam was known as Sot and is still standing today. The dam was not small and the vehicle could “run on the road”. There were water gates on that dam. It was built between 1974 and 1975 and finished in 1976. The water came from the mountain. There was a small stream. When the gate was closed, the water was “around the mountain”. The villagers used the water to drink. Sot was the one who led the water at the time. The stream was small and had therefore no name. He confirmed that he was a native of Koh Nhek. Villagers called the stream Au Phnom Kraol. The houses were thatched-roofed and there were four or five houses around K-16. Ta Horn’s house was made of bamboo and the ground floor was made of concrete and within the vicinity of 300 or 400 meters there was K-11, K-17 and the prison. His house was located in the provincial town. There was a plan to move K-16 to the area as well.

The Security Center was close to K-11 and 500 meters further there was K-17. There were quarters for workers to the north and south.

She asked whether K-11 and K-17 were within or outside the parameters of Phnom Kraol. He said that they were outside. Ta Sophea was related to him, so he knew what he did at the time. Sophea was close to his mother at the time. K-17 was led by Horn, Tyn and Ta Lay. Initially, K-16 was close to K-17. However, after 1975 K-17 was changed to Phnom Kraol.

Ta Tin was the head of K-17. Ta Tin was his elder brother in law and passed away last year. Ta Sy was arrested but released later. Ta Lay replaced their position in 1978. Not long after, he was taken away and killed as well. He did not know what happened afterwards, since he was hospitalized.

Ms. Guissé asked whether he knew what Ta Sarun’s role was in relation to Phnom Kraol Security Center in addition to his task as district secretary. The President said that that he was not district secretary, but sector secretary. He replied that he did not know his duties. At this point, Ms. Guissé finished her examination of the witness and handed over the floor to her national colleague Kong Sam Onn.

Mr. Sam Onn wanted to know whether there were any clashes between the liberated forces and the Vietnamese forces before 1975. He replied that there were three clashes with the Vietnamese: two times at Keo Seima and one time at another location. He clarified that he referred to after 1975. To his knowledge, there were no clashes between 1970 and 1975. He said he knew about these clashes in 1977, since there was an announcement in the sector. He said that he heard it form a superior who announced it to subordinates. He did not understand completely why there had been clashes.

Mr. Sam Onn then wanted to know how he knew that the clashes occurred on the Kampuchean territory. He learned this information from a handicapped soldier who stepped onto a landmine and was hospitalized at the same hospital. He had told him that they had attacked the Vietnamese troops, since they had not fully retreated and were still one kilometer into Cambodian territory. The soldier was transferred elsewhere later. Mr. Sam Onn inquired about the landmine. He replied that it was likely that this was a landmine from the previous regime. He said that it could have been a mine by the US, Vietnam or Cambodia.

Mr. Sam Onn inquired whether he knew the mission of FULRO. He answered that FULRO was a Vietnamese ethnic group. He heard that they wanted to reclaim Champa territory, which was invaded and taken by Vietnam. He knew one member of FULRO who was stationed at a mountain and had passed away by now. This person was part of an ethnic minority. He was not familiar with the activities of FULRO, since they did not interact with them.

Turning to the next topic, Mr. Sam Onn asked about his position. Mr. Sam Onn said that he had told the court that his two main tasks were to build a dam or lead people to the rice field and asked how many people were under his supervision. He replied that the chiefs of cooperatives would cooperate with them how to build a dam. There were several groups: one group of 15 worked at one worksite, while another worked in a group of 15 as well. They had children, and adults and children taken together were around 50. There were around 30 or 40 families.

 

Vietnamese support

One time, there were two Vietnamese messengers who helped him cook for a meeting. The meeting was held inside with the Vietnamese counterparts. He was asked to get a vehicle from Kratie province to transport the material, which is why he came with a motorbike and put it on a truck via Snuol route. They were given weapons, medicine, clothes, shoes and tents. Later, Ka Sy was assigned to continue the cooperation with the Vietnamese side. He had to forward information to the upper level.

This continued until the day of the liberation when he was in Vietnam. He gathered the people in Vietnam who had fled to make them return. Kham Phoun and Ka Sy were there originally as well. They went back to Cambodia without the people, since they did not want to return. The Vietnamese counterpart said that Cambodian people had gone to Vietnam to reside there. The Vietnamese had said that they would assist them with transportation if the people would want to return, but that these Cambodians could not return. Around the 13 or 14 April 1975, they met with the Vietnamese counterparts in Vietnam. Ka Sy never met the Vietnamese again until the day of his arrest. At this point, Mr. Sam Onn concluded his questioning.

The President thanked the witness and dismissed him.

---

 

New Witness: Sao Sarun

After the break, new witness 2-TCW-1012 was introduced to the Chamber.

Sao Sarun was born in Mondulkiri Province, is around 92 years old and has ten children.

International Co-Prosecutor Nicholas Koumjian clarified that he had testified in 2012 and that he would try not to repeat the same questions, but only seek clarification. Mr. Sarun confirmed that he remained living in Mondulkiri until the invasion of the Vietnamese. Most of the people belonging to an ethnic minority were Phnong. They were living in the entire Mondulkiri Province. He confirmed having joined the resistance group fighting against the “imperialists” in 1968. He joined the group upon the appeal of Sihanouk. Mr. Koumjian read an excerpt of his first Written Record of Interview, in which he had stated that a Khmer Rouge group invaded two villages to form resistance.[12] He said that Laing was the group leader. Mr. Koumjian asked whether it was correct that this was two years before the Lon Nol coup. He then asked another question and asked whether Laing became a member of the Democratic Kampuchea party committee, which he confirmed. He also confirmed that he became the sector committee of Sector 105.

Mr. Koumjian asked him when he first met Pol Pot, which the witness could not remember. He met him in Phnom Penh. He never saw Nuon Chea, Khieu Samphan or Ieng Sary in Mondulkiri. Mr. Koumjian said that he had testified that he attended a meeting in Kampong Thom in 1972 during which Nuon Chea presented. He wanted to know what Nuon Chea spoke about. Mr. Sarun replied that the content of his speech was to mobilize forces to fight against the US and to build the economy. In his statement he had said that Nuon Chea talked about repressive classes.[13] He replied that the oppressive classes referred “perhaps to the Late King”, but he was not certain. He elaborated that they referred to those who oppressed the people.

Mr. Koumjian wanted to know whether he followed policies from his superiors during his time as District Secretary and then Sector Secretary for Sector 105 or whether he was allowed to make his own policies. He replied that he was first secretary of Pech Chenda District. Mr. Koumjian repeated the question. He answered that the policies were set out by the party center and individuals could not create an own policy. “We could not refuse to implement the policies.” Mr. Koumjian turned to the policy of marriages and asked whether he could recall what the policy was towards marriages during the Democratic Kampuchea regime. Mr. Sarun answered that he did not know well about such policy. However, one or two couples were arranged to be married during the regime. “It would not be possible to marry those people according to the old tradition”, he said.

To refresh his memory, Mr. Koumjian referred to something that Nuon Chea had written in his book with Teth Sambath.[14] Mr. Koppe corrected this and said that Nuon Chea was not a co-author of this book. In this book, they talked about the marriage of young women to serve the revolutionary cause. Mr. Koumjian asked whether it was a correct statement of the marriage policy. At this point, Mr. Koppe objected. He said that the text was written mainly by Gina Chon and reflected what Gina Chon believed to be the policy of marriage. Mr. Koumjian replied that Nuon Chea had authorized this book and that this quote was from a direct interview with Nuon Chea. Mr. Koppe was incorrect and said that the quote was completely out of context and that the book was published at a time that Nuon Chea had already been imprisoned for three years. He had consequently never authorized the final version.

After several minutes of deliberating with the Bench, the President overruled the objection. Mr. Koumjian repeated the question. The witness replied that he “didn’t understand much about that policy” and that he only saw a couple being married. Mr. Koumjian asked whether he understood from meetings or study sessions that Angkar wanted to increase the population, which the witness confirmed. “For that reason, you were encouraged to marry.”

 

Sector 105: disappearance of people

Mr. Koumjian inquired whether it was correct that Sector 105 was an independent sector, as he had said on June 5 2012. The witness affirmed this. He also confirmed that they communicated directly with the center and not through a zone. Mr. Koumjian referred to a contemporaneous document, which referred to the smashing of people.[15] Mr. Koumjian said that they indicated that the right to smash inside and outside of ranks was decided by the Standing Committee for independent sectors. He answered that he did not understand the process well when he was at the district committee. Mr. Koumjian referred to one of his days of testimony in which they had asked him about the arrest of Chuon and had answered that “people disappeared” and “everybody was afraid”.[16] Mr. Sarun said that this was indeed the case. If someone went to Phnom Penh, this person never returned, as happened to his younger brother-in-law Sophea. He never returned. Mr. Koumjian wanted to know who ordered Mala and Chuon to be sent away.[17] He answered that the order had to come from Pol Pot, since they were accused of betrayal. The orders came through telegrams for those people to attend study sessions. Mr. Koumjian wanted to know whether it was correct that Nuon Chea called people for study session as he had said earlier. The witness confirmed this. Only his younger brother-in-law disappeared and the rest did not. Mr. Koumjian said that they had records of hundreds of individuals from 105 being taken to S-21 and wanted to know who ordered this. Mr. Sarun replied that he did not know.

Mr. Koumjian wanted know whether he was appointed by Pol Pot to lead the sector when Laing died. Chuon had told him so. Mr. Sarun said that Laing died when Kham Phoun fought with him in Phnom Penh. Chuon told him that Kham Phoun had a pistol. He confirmed that he replaced Laing in late 1977.

Mr. Koumjian wanted to know whether he ever saw any trials or court proceedings for the people who disappeared and never returned, which the witness denied. He did not hear about any judgment. People were called for study sessions and disappeared without reason. He did not know what offenses they had committed. They disappeared after they were called. He said that their families did not disappear when these people did not return.[18] Mr. Koumjian read an excerpt of his last day of testimony in which it had been indicated that wives and children were arrested. When he asked whether families were not arrested, Mr. Koppe objected and said that wives were not arrested simply because they were the wives. Mr. Koumjian said that he was referring to Sector 105 and that witnesses there had said that children were also arrested when their father was arrested. Mr. Sarun denied this: “It did not happen in Sector 105”. The wife was never arrested, he said, when the husband was arrested. “In Mondulkiri, no such thing occurred”, he said.

Mr. Koumjian inquired when the last time was that he returned to Mondulkiri. He could not recall this. He visited it perhaps one or two times. Mr. Koumjian said that witness Sal Ra had said that Mr. Sarun would not return to Mondulkiri, since he did not dare “because his hands are stained with the blood of many people’.[19] Mr. Koumjian wanted to know why people would think that many people died while he was Sector Secretary. He said that he went to Mondulkiri a few times and that he stayed there for three months the first time. He stayed in Mondulkiri provincial town for one week. The commanders of soldiers “celebrated and threw a party” when he was there. “I was not the one who killed people. Killings did happen in Pol Pot’s time. Individuals would accuse one another and kill one another”. However, the one who made a report “had no good intentions”, he said, “They wanted to kill Khmer people by saying this in the report”. He went on: “They wanted to exterminate their own people”.

Mr. Koumjian asked who it was who wanted to “kill their own people”. Mr. Sarun replied that the one who made the report “want to be famous” and kill their own people. It was not proper, he alleged, to say that he was the one who killed people. “Nothing happened to me” while he was in Mondulkiri. He want to Oral to join “the wedding party” and spent time there. “They were happy when they saw me at the time”.

At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.

 

Taking over Laing’s position

After the break, Mr. Koumjian wanted to know whether he was ever criticized by the Center for his work after the death of Ta Laing. He replied that he was instructed to manage the people and the situation well so that they would not suffer from starvation. Mr. Sarun denied having ever been criticized. Instead, he received instructions and advice. He said that he was also only in the position for two months, to which Mr. Koumjian said that there was evidence that he was in that position for over a year, but moved on.

Mr. Koumjian then wanted to know whether there was any reason why he did not want to take over the position after the death of Ta Laing, since he had told Pol Pot that he was not qualified for the position. He replied that he did not want to take it due to his lack of education. His position was confirmed in 1978 by a majority decision. He said that he had discussed the matter that he did not want to be in the position due to his limited knowledge and capability. Later, he was appointed at the end of a conference that was held in September. Pol Pot instructed Division 920 to assist him due to his limited knowledge and ability. The focus was on economics and welfare. When Mr. Koumjian asked whether the military was involved, the witness asked him to repeat the question. Mr. Koumjian moved on instead due to time restraints.

Pol Pot and other leaders had told them that the Vietnamese had the intention to invade Cambodia and swallow it. Mr. Koumjian asked whether this was also discussed in a meeting he had mentioned having attended that also Khieu Samphan took part in. The witness confirmed this. “I myself witnessed the invasions along the border”. The leadership, including Son Sen, Pol Pot, Nuon Chea, and more, had said that they needed to counter the attacks. Mr. Koumjian referred to a book, in which Khieu Samphan had talked about the attacks of Vietnam in several years and said that it was “irrefutable” that the Khmer Rouge committed atrocities against civilians.[20] Mr. Koppe objected on three grounds: first, the book was by Chanda and not Khieu Samphan. Second, it was outside the scope of the trial. Third, the locations mentioned were far away from those where the witness worked. Ms. Guissé also objected. Mr. Koumjian responded saying that it was “clearly relevant”. Ms. Guissé continued to object and said that the question was not whether Khieu Samphan had written this boo, but rather that he had based himself on facts that were known after the event. The Bench deliberated for several minutes. The floor was granted to Judge Jean-Marc to issue an oral ruling. Judge Lavergne requested Mr. Koumjian to rephrase his question, since it was not possible from this book at the time that Khieu Samphan was aware of the Democratic Kampuchea incursions of Vietnam at the time. Mr. Koumjian asked whether he knew about Vietnamese incursions, which the witness could not answer.

Mr. Koumjian asked whether Pol Pot said that he hated Vietnamese. The witness replied that he did not hate the Vietnamese but those Vietnamese who invaded Cambodia. Mr. Koumjian referred to the book by Teth Sambath and Gina Chon , in which Nuon Chea had said that Pol Pot explained hating the Vietnamese.[21] Mr. Sarun denied having heard this. He said that they worked together with Vietnamese troops to fight against the Americans.

Mr. Koumjian whether it was correct that Pol Pot had asked him to read a confession that implicated Mr. Sarun and others, which the witness affirmed. They did not know where the confession originated from. He did not know whether the confession was true or not. “Those who confessed said whatever they wanted to”.  The confessions included almost all cadres, but they had to come and clarify that the accusations were not true. Nothing happened to him despite the fact that there was a confession. They were asked to read and examine what was in it. Mr. Koumjian read another excerpt that seemed to indicate that Pol Pot was of the view that confessions were unreliable, because people had been tortured when the confessions were obtained.[22] Mr. Sarun denied knowledge of this. Asked whether Pol Pot had acknowledged to him that too many people had been killed, he denied having heard of this.

 

Cadres in the sector

Turning to the person Sot, who was responsible for labor and building the dam, he inquired about the position of the younger brother of Sophea. Mr. Sarun said that he knew Sot. Mr. Koumjian referred to a telegram sent by Sarun, asking Pol Pot what to do with Sot, who had been implicated.[23] Mr. Koumjian wanted to know whether he could recall sending this telegram. Mr. Sarun recounted that Sot was accused of committing immoral acts and of treason. Later, when meeting Sot “it was not true”, so he sent a telegram to Pol Pot, asking to pardon Sot. He said that Sot was freed at the time but did not know what happened to him afterward. At this point, Mr. Koumjian handed over the floor to Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyers, but the civil parties informed him that he could take their time.

Mr. Koumjian referred to a telegram of January 1 1978 that he had been asked about in 2012.[24] He had said that they had “swept them away”. Mr. Koumjian asked whether it was correct that this meant that they were killed, which the witness denied. He said that he did not know about the arrest of the yuon while Laing was there. Mr. Sarun disputed any knowledge about this. “Is it the case that you don’t know anything about the killings” after the death of Laing until the arrival of the Vietnamese, Mr. Koumjian confronted the witness. At this point, Ms. Guissé interjected and asked whether this was addressed to Office 870. Mr. Koumjian repeated his question and asked whether Office 870 ever responded to this telegram. He denied this. “I never asked any reaction from Office 870”. He had to make reports on the daily and monthly basis to Office 870. He did not know how often they sent a telegram to him – sometimes once a month. They would send him a telegram when “the situation changed”.  Sometimes he would receive it two times per month, sometimes not at all. “I never committed any crime”, namely arresting or killing people. “I personally never, I never committed such acts”, he stressed. There were ordinary combatants who assisted him.

He could not remember the task of Tin at first, but said that Ta Tin was the chief of the office and was replaced by Vien Lay later. He did not know what happened to him. He remained working since the time of Ta Laing. Lay was the member while Tin was the chief.

Mr. Koumjian said that they had lists that showed that Vien Lay entered S-21 on 20 October 1978.[25] Mr. Koumjian pressed on the matter and asked why he had said that he continued working for him until the end. He replied that he was in the district at the time and did not know whether Ta San sent him to be arrested. He denied any knowledge about implementation of measures by the division. “All I know is that people were transported on vehicles”, and may have been transported by boat, but he did not know, because he was in the district.

Mr. Koumjian wanted to know why he went to the district only twice a week, as he had testified in 2012. He said that he had not yet been in charge of the office. Some of the prisoners had been released and he noticed that there were only three or four prisoners. “That was my observation, I’m not telling lies”. Mr. Koumjian said that two surviving prisoners had said that there were around 80 prisoners, amongst them children. The witness said that he did not see any children at the time, but only three or four male prisoners.

Mr. Koumjian inquired whether K-17 office was used to detain people, because K-11 was full. Mr. Sarun said that he did not know. He never saw people detained at K-17. There were only three or four prisoners, he insisted. He confirmed that he had been asked to take over the position by Pol Pot, that he loyally fulfilled the tasks and that he was never criticized by Pol Pot. The President adjourned the hearing. It will continue tomorrow, 30 March 2016, at 9 am with the testimony of Sao Sarun. Witness 2-TCW-1016 will testify afterwards in relation to Phnom Kraol.

 

 

[1] E3/5177, at 00197860 (KH) and 00274099 (EN).

[2] Testimony of Bun Loeng, March 28 2016, 10:04

[3] E3/5636, at 00711207 (EN) , 00042471 (KH), 00727128 (FR).

[4] E3/5636, at 00711231 (EN), 000424890 (KH) , page 146.

[5] E3/5636, at 00727140 (FR), 00711225 (EN), 00042483 (KH).

[6] E3/6767, at 01013545 (FR), 01194793 (EN).

[7] E3/8749, at 00727661 (FR), 00715750 (EN).

[8] E3/5636, at 00727141 (FR), 00711226 (EN), 00042485 and 00042490 (KH).

[9] ibid.

[10] E3/5178, at 004033386-87 (FR), 00274100 (EN), 00197862 (KH).

[11] E3/5178, ibid.

[12] E3/367, at 00251436 (KH), 00486009 (FR), 00278693 (EN).

[13] E3/367, at 00251437 (KH), 00486010 (FR), 00278694 (EN).

[14] E3/4202, at 00858253 (KH), 00849377 (FR), 00757496 (EN).

[15] E3/12, 30 March 1976, decision of the Central Committee Regarding a Number of Matters.

[16] June 7 2012, 09:27.

[17] June 6 2012, 14:33.

[18] E3/57 and June 12 2012, at 14:45.

[19] E3/8651, at 01156504 (EN), 00042269 (KH).

[20] E3/18, at 001038849 (KH), 00595446 (FR), p. 73 (EN).

[21] E3/4202, at 00858265 (KH), 00849385 (FR), p. 51 (EN).

[22] E3/4202, at 00849450 (FR), 00858362 (KH), p. 119 (EN).

[23] E3/156, Telegram from April 23 1978.

[24] E3/248.

[25] E3/2251, E3/1651.