Former S-21 Interrogator Details Methods of Torture

 

Today, April 27, 2016, former S-21 guard and interrogator Prak Khan started his testimony. Before this, however, Nuon Chea addressed the Court and gave a speech about armed conflicts with Vitnam. Mr. Khan then gave evidence about methods of torture and interrogation. He also provided information on staff members who worked at S-21. He briefly addressed Vietnamese soldiers and civilians who were brought into S-21.

 

Nuon Chea addresses the Court

All parties, with the exception of Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel Kong Sam Onn, were present. Witness 2-TCW-931 would be heard today. First, co-accused Nuon Chea gave a speech in relation to the armed conflict with Vietnam. He pointed to Vietnamese troops that, according to him, conquered the coastal areas of Kampot in May 1975 and that engaged in armed conflict since then. He said the Democratic Kampuchea government attempted to “establish a friendship agreement”, but that Vietnam rejected this. He listed several dates on which Vietnam attacked Cambodian territory in Rattanakiri and other areas. Mr. Nuon Chea then said that they had been aware of a plan by Vietnam to topple the Democratic Kampuchea government.

Moreover, he said that there was an armed conflict with Thai forces in 1976, who had, according to him, invaded Cambodia seventeen times at the time. Next, Mr. Nuon Chea said that there was an attempt of a coup by Koy Thuon, the former North Zone secretary and Oeun in 1977. According to him, they had planned this in cooperation with Vietnam. He argued that Vietnam incited a rebellion in the East Zone in May 1978 and that some of the leading cadres defected to Vietnam. These Khmer defectors joined the fighting at the border in August. He further said that Vietnam attempted a coup led by Vorn Vet in 1978, but ultimately failed with it.

 

After his ten-minute speech, Judge Claudia Fenz advised counsel to ensure next time to hear such a speech at the appropriate moment, since she failed to see the relevance to S-21. Mr. Koppe replied that the judgment of Case 001 referred to the armed conflict and his client had referred to Koy Thuon and Vorn Vet. Judge Fenz interrupted his argument and said that it had been an advice and that there was no need for pleading now.

Nuon Chea requested to be able to follow the proceedings from the holding cell, which was granted. The testimony of the next witness then commenced.

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New Witness: Prak Khan

Witness Prak Khan, 61, was born in Kraing Leav Village, Bati District, Takeo Province. The floor was granted to the Co-Prosecution. National Deputy Co-Prosecutor Srea Rattanak asked whether it was correct that he was part of Division 301 beforehand, which the witness confirmed. He started working at S-21 in late 1976 or early 1977. This was during the windy season when they harvested rice. He was assigned to work as a guard. He was stationed to the east of the compound close to the sewage irrigation system. He could not remember the number of the road. It was to the east of Monivong Boulevard. He slept at the radio station close to the fire station. The house where he slept was around fifty meters away from where he stood guard. They had to stand guard at the gates to make sure that “no one could enter into S-21 freely”. He was standing guard at the gates and saw vehicles entering and leaving. They transported prisoners into the compound from time to time. The vehicles belonged to S-21. He recognized the drivers.

There were no other trucks from other unit but only vehicles from S-21. To refresh his memory, Mr. Rattanak referred to his Written Record of Interview, in which he had talked about arrests and vehicles.[1] Mr. Khan insisted that there were no other vehicles than the ones from S-21. He opened the gate and the trucks would enter the compound. The registration office was located inside the compound between building C and D. He did not know how many people were transported on one truck. Sometimes only a few and sometimes many. The trucks made in China could transport up to fifty or sixty people. To refresh his memory, Mr. Rattanak referred to his earlier testimony, in which he had said that ten prisoners would be transported if the trucks were small.[2] The witness confirmed this, but said that if the truck was small, there were three or four prisoners. Prisoners were handcuffed and blindfolded. With this, Mr. Rattanak finished his line of questioning and handed the floor to his international colleague Vincent de Wilde.

Mr. de Wilde said that he had said in his Written Record of Interview that other units also brought in trucks with prisoners.[3] The witness said that he may have been confused earlier when he gave the statement to the investigators and that only trucks from S-21 brought in prisoners. Mr. de Wilde said that he had also testified about this under oath in July 2009.[4] Mr. Khan replied that he remembered that sometimes prisoners were unloaded in front of S-21 and then arrested by S-21 staff. The President said that the locations were different back then and that this should be clarified.

Mr. de Wilde asked whether he had referred to the house where he stood guard at the exterior of the S-21 compound. The witness said that the compound was around one kilometer. To the south it bordered with the Tuol Tom Poung Pagoda, to another side with the sewage canal and the other with the electricity station. “So people were unloaded from the truck and gathered there, where they were arrested and brought into the prison”. They were handcuffed and blindfolded before being brought into S-21.n

The prisoners were photographed at Ty’s office and their photographs were “drawn up”. When he was based outside the compound, he did not have the right to go inside into the compound.

“When prisoners were taken out, they were taken out to be killed at nearby places. And their bodies were buried in those nearby places.”

When Mr. de Wilde asked about graves he might have seen, Mr. Koppe objected, saying the Prosecution was leading the witness and that the witness was both speculating and relied on post-1979 information. Mr. de Wilde asked whether the prisoners who had been killed were buried or left unburied “to rot”. The witness said that dead bodies were buried. Mr. de Wilde asked whether there was a nauseating stench from the pits. He said that he visited that site when he looked for coconut fruits. He saw blood on the graves and “there was some smell coming from the inside”. Executed prisoners were buried close to S-21 until 1979, but later during the regime they were also taken further away to be killed.

Mr. de Wilde wanted to know how many trucks arrived every day or every week. At this point, Mr. Koppe interjected and said that the mentioning of the year 1975 was inappropriate, since the prison compound with A, B, C and D was only established in 1976. Moreover, the witness only arrived at S-21 in 1976. Mr. de Wilde rephrased his questioning. Mr. Khan said that not many prisoners came in the beginning, but in 1978 and 1979 many arrived. The increase in numbers of prisoners started from 1977 or 1978. The number of prisoners increased “after the purge happened”. “The massive arrival of prisoners happened maybe in late 1978 during the time that the Vietnamese fought to enter the territory of Cambodia, and many of those prisoners were brought in from the east”.

Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether interrogations took place outside the prison. Mr. Khan said that he was simply a guard in the beginning and had heard about that from others. He did not enter the compound often. No prisoners could exit the prison after they had been brought in.

Mr. de Wilde sought information about the hot, cold and chewing unit, Mr. Koppe objected.[5] He said that the witness was a guard at the beginning. The timing should therefore be made clear as to when the witness could have known what. This argument was supported by Trial Chamber President Nil Nonn.

Mr. de Wilde asked whether there was a special prison outside the prison where high-level prisoners were detained. The witness said the main prison was located in the south.

At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.

 

Working as an interrogator

After the break, Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether he remembered when his status changed from a guard to an interrogator. Mr. de Wilde said that he had testified that it was late 1976.[6] He replied that he was not sure about the time. At the time, he had no right to reject the assignment. Anyone who refused “would be alleged to be enemy of the revolution, so no one dared to refuse or reject the assignment”.

When Mr. de Wilde asked about enemies of the revolution, both Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel Anta Guissé and Mr. Koppe objected. The objections were overruled. The witness replied that the people who did not work for the revolution were considered enemies. When anyone rejected an assignment, “that person will face the bad fate”. He explained that “their fate would come to an end” and that they would be imprisoned. He accepted his assignment as an interrogator, because he needed to do this to survive.

He was in the Chewing Unit when he was an interrogator. Besides this unit, there was a Hot Unit. After prisoners were interrogated “exhaustively”, they would be sent to the Chewing Unit. The prisoners that were sent to his unit were “mostly tortured exhaustively already” and they had to “chew” them to extract more information. It was rare that new prisoners were sent to his unit.

Asked about the meaning of the word “chew” he said that they interrogated them and asked about details “until we obtained the full answer.”

For his training, he first observed the other interrogators to learn “how to handcuff, how to blindfold, how to torture prisoners.” After having “gained the skills in all of this”, he could interrogate prisoners himself. Later, he received instructions and training. Every half-month or every month, they were invited for a training session at Duch’s house about “the various techniques that should be used for interrogating and torturing”. Son Sen came to join them at the training session at Duch’s house once.

Duch and Son Sen said that S-21 “was the life of the country, so we had to work hard to search for the networks or strings that the prisoners gave us in the answers”. They were told that “S-21 was the key of Cambodia”.

Mr. de Wilde requested leave to present an extract of the film S-21 – the Khmer Rouge Killing Machine by Rithy Panh.[7] The request was granted. In this extract, he had said that S-21 was “the right hand of the Party”. The witness explained that they had to do whatever they were assigned to do by the party and that it was “because the Party had trust and confidence in us”.  They frequently instructed them to follow the orders of the Party.

Mr. de Wilde read an extract of a notebook of a former S-21 staff member, who had said that they had to forward the revolution by adhering to it and eliminate enemies.[8] Mr. de Wilde asked whether he heard Son Sen, Duch and others pride themselves in eliminating enemies to assist the revolution take a “great leap forward”. The witness confirmed this. He was a security guard at the time.

Mr. de Wilde inquired which networks they tried to identify and were specifically instructed to identify during the interrogations. He replied that they assigned them not to target any specific network, but that there were many networks such as CIA, KTB, and others. Some of the prisoners who confessed were part of the yuon and others of the Khmer Sar. Duch never told them the specific names of his superiors, but only talked about them as Brother 1 and Brother 2. Duch had told them whether the reports he had sent to them were accepted or rejected. This was raised in meetings. Sometimes Duch had said that he reported to Brother 1 and Brother 2.

He met Son Sen during a training session at Duch’s house. He was the commander-in-chief of the army.

 

Leadership

Mr. de Wilde inquired whether Duch had given Brother 2 as an example of someone who had authorized the arrest of his nephew Sat. At this point, Mr. Koppe interjected and said that the witness had already said that he did not know who Brothers 1 and 2 were and that he therefore could not give any information on the nephews either. Mr. de Wilde omitted the name of the cousin and repeated the question. Mr. Khan said that he did not know about this. He did not know the real names of people, since Duch usually addressed people as “comrade”.

He did not know more about specific arrests that Duch may have talked about. He saw Son Sen only once when he addressed the people in the political training session. He could not recall the year. “I was concerned that I would be arrested”. It was “long before” the time of the “great Vietnamese offences”. The situation at S-21 was chaotic and almost all interrogators had been arrested at the time.

 

Interrogations

Mr. de Wilde wanted to know what the final objective were of the interrogations he had to conduct. Mr. Khan said that the purpose was to obtain confessions. After this, “that would be sent to the upper echelon.” After the confession was obtained, he would forward the confession or make a report to his superiors. Those who were not able to obtain the confession had to extract further. The content of confessions was sometimes not correct, “but at the end we had to forward the confession up the line”. He did not know whether the prisoners died after they had given confessions. Mr. de Wilde asked whether he received instructions to keep prisoners alive until they had completely confessed. “When we beat them, we were not required to beat them severely, to avoid the death”. If a prisoner had died, they would have been reprimanded as well.

As for his state of mind “I was so scared”, in particular with regards to the report, “and also with regards to prevent the prisoner from dying”. He was afraid that prisoners would die because of torture. “Although I inflicted torture, the torture would usually be light”.

His group of interrogators consisted of 12 members. There were 30 members in total in three groups. “From time to time, interrogators disappeared, and only I remained. I was from Division 703. And later on, the young children from the west were sent in to replace and to be in charge of that task”. He said that there were no noticeable offenses committed by other interrogators: “and they were covered with blankets to avoid people seeing their ankles.” They would be arrested based on their network. The subordinates of leaders of specific groups were arrested. For example, people from Division 703 were arrested “and only I survived after 7 January”.

He did not know where the prisoners came from that were sent to him. Combatants and chief of regiments were sent to him for interrogation. He confirmed that they came from anywhere.

Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether the prisoners had been denounced by other prisoners who had been interrogator. He confirmed this: “arrests happened from one to another instances”. Usually prisoners implicated other people in their confessions.

The chief of the prison was Duch. The deputy was Hor. The members were Phal, in charge of the external security guards, and Peng, responsible for internal security guards. Mr. de Wilde asked whether he remembered the name Him Huy, which the witness confirmed. He replied that he was in charge of the guards outside the compound of the prison. He was also in charge of transporting prisoners in and out of the prison. Mr. de Wilde wanted to know what the role of Mam Nai alias Chan was. He answered that Chan had no specific position, but worked as an assistant to Duch regarding the interrogation unit.

After he worked at S-21, and in particular when being a guard, Huy was his superior. When he was reassigned to work as an interrogator, Smuon was in charge of his group, then Chhorn and then Tyt.

At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.

 

Enemies and interrogations

After the break, Mr. de Wilde asked whether it was possible for the Civil Party lawyers to ask questions tomorrow morning for thirty minutes. This request was granted. He then asked whether he had heard of the people Pang and Lin from S-21. There was a messenger unit that accompanied unit from Ang Leang. The messenger was responsible for delivering messages to the upper and lower level. He did not know their names. The S-21 staff Heng and his wife Ry were both imprisoned later. There were cases where prisoners were brought in with their wives and children. He did not know why children were arrested as well. He was never asked to interrogate children. Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether “removing all roots” meant anything to him, which the witness confirmed: “When we arrested the enemy, we had to arrest everyone in this network”. Anyone related to the enemy would be arrested. This applied to both spouses and children. He also confirmed that there were relatively few women interrogated in comparison to men.

Mr. de Wilde also wanted to know whether Duch had said that it was necessary to use violence or torture when the prisoner did not confess. Mr. Khan confirmed this: “As long as that prisoner refused to confess, we must use torture”.  About fifty or sixty percent of the prisoners were interrogated. Initially, they had many interrogators, but they were arrested later. Thus, the number of prisoner increased, while the number of interrogators decreased. The methods to expedite the interrogation processes were instructed to them, but in reality they could not do that. Interrogations often took around two months. Since they had to type the sessions themselves, this slowed down the process.

 

Detention conditions

Mr. de Wilde asked whether the prisoners were thin. He replied that some were thin and others had physical injuries, “because they did not receive enough food while they were in the prison”. Mr. de Wilde inquired whether his work was interrupted sometimes, because prisoners were ill. Mr. Khan confirmed this. “Sometimes, during the course of the interrogation, the prisoner died”. Mr. Koppe interjected and said that Mr. de Wilde had said that detention conditions had already been discussed in Case 001. He argued that the Prosecution had a “big advantage” of having had interviewed the witness already. For the defense, this was the first opportunity to challenge the evidence.

Mr. de Wilde asked whether he had heard of a staff member called Try, who was working at the medical unit. Mr. Khan confirmed this. Try was the head of the medical unit, he said. Mr. de Wilde read an excerpt of an interrogator’s notebook, who had said that Comrade Try was afraid of dying, because of epidemics.[9] Mr. Khan answered that he did not know whether prisoners experiences epidemics, but there were cases where prisoners died every day. When prisoners arrived, Ta Chan gave them the letter with their names, their age and the provinces the prisoners came from.

 

Interrogation techniques

He was put with one senior or experienced interrogator in the beginning, but later he conducted them by himself. Mr. de Wilde asked whether Tyt, Duch or Chan came to inspect the interrogation, which he confirmed. Tyt and Duch came in and asked what their names was and where they came from. In the first step, they asked them about their biographies and relationships for a few days until the prisoners “gave us the confession”. They sought permission from Duch and Chan to use torture if the prisoner refused to confess.

When Mr. de Wilde asked whether and how he was taught how to use torture, Mr. Koppe objected and said that “there are various degrees of treatment”. A legal distinction should be made. Mr. Koppe gave an example of the witness having told Rithy Panh that one time he hit the table “really hard” and scared the prisoner.

The President said that in Khmer culture, no specific word existed for torture. When a father disciplined a child, the same word was used.

Mr. de Wilde asked the witness who trained him the techniques that were violent. The witness replied that previous workers taught him: Heng, Suon, and another. Duch himself provided him with training on the techniques of mistreating prisoners and how to prevent prisoners from dying. Duch had taught them waterboarding and how to force prisoners to eat excrements and drink urine. Sometimes fearing prisoners was sufficient, while in other cases they had to use violent treatment to make them confess.

Mr. de Wilde referred to his statement, in which he had said that 99% of the prisoners said in the beginning that they were not guilty.[10] Mr. de Wilde asked for reaction to this. Mr. Koppe objected and said that the witness had interrogated around fifty people only and could not give a generic overview of interrogations at S-21. The objection was overruled. Mr. Khan recounted that the percentage of 99% was correct. “Initially, they did not acknowledge their wrongdoings, or they did not confess”.

Mr. de Wilde asked whether the witness needed an order each time that he wanted to resort to violence during an interrogation. Mr. Khan said that he had to seek authorization from Tyt whether torture could be used. They only had the authority for “minor acts” which he defined as “for example to pull hair from their leg”. For more severe treatment they had to seek permission. Mr. de Wilde referred to his statement, in which he had said that they could use physical violence without permission and could use anything that they had at their disposal, such as electric wires, needles and the like.[11] As for torture, a plier was used to pull nails, for example. “So the methods was previously employed by Chan, but later on we modified the method a little bit”. He gave the example of sticking a needle under the nail of a prisoner. When it became painful, the prisoner started to confess.

Mr. de Wilde confronted the witness: “How could you afford to be insensitive in such a situation and carry on your work?” Mr. Koppe said that he did not know why the feelings of the witness in this situation were relevant for any questions were relevant to any question that the Chamber had to answer. The objection was overruled. “I myself was scared. Sometimes my body trembled during the day time and during the night time. I was thinking whether torture should be implemented. On the one hand, I had to fulfill the orders. On the other, I did not want to engage in such acts of torture or violence. It is our tradition that we do not resort to violence. And at night time, I was thinking of how I could survive tomorrow. Even at present times, when I think of what happened at the time, my body still trembles, because of the constant fear in my feeling. I used to fight at the front battlefield, but I never felt scared, as I was so scared as S-21. At S-21, I could never sleep well at night time, and only after the 7 January Day, I felt better. But even at present days, when I think of what happened at the time, my chest is pounding.”

Prisoners were usually referred to as enemy and not as prisoner. For the witness himself, the word enemy had a more severe connotation than prisoner.

He never saw a prisoner who confessed and was subsequently released at S-21. They never used the word “mistake” when arresting a prisoner. Mr. Koppe objected when Mr. de Wilde asked whether prisoners had a chance to escape. The objection was not upheld. Mr. Khan recounted that he did not seek permission for releasing the prisoner when they did not confess.

The President encouraged the parties to use only terms that were well-understood by everyone and that the word “guilt” had a “deep legal meaning”. The witness recounted that they had to be “absolute” in treating the enemy, even if that meant treating their parents in the same way.

 

Torture methods

In the last session, the floor was given back to the Co-Prosecution. Mr. de Wilde requested an additional fifteen minutes that that they would need due to the many objections. Mr. de Wilde showed a video clip, in which it was said that torture was inflicted upon prisoners without thinking.[12] Mr. Khan remembered that Duch gave the instructions to be strict. They had to prevent prisoners from protesting. No such incident happened, since prisoners were kept in small cells. Prisoners were prohibited from speaking loudly and from shouting from one to another. During interrogations prisoners shouted, but the windows and doors were locked, so the sound did not go outside the room.

He confirmed that Duch showed an image during a study session and to which the prisoners were instructed to pay tribute to. The prisoners had to respect the image of the dog. Mr. de Wilde read out an excerpt of a document, which indicated that the image of a dog was used to destabilize the prisoners and to see whether they saluted them correctly – if they did so, this revolved their traitorous activities, since they were used to represent the American imperialists and the Vietnamese.[13] Mr. Khan confirmed that it was used to make prisoners confess.

Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether whipping with sticks were the technique that was used the most, which the witness confirmed. Mr. de Wilde asked whether prisoners sustained major injuries.  Mr. Koppe interjected and objected. The objection was overruled. The witness recounted that prisoners had scars and some got infected. Some injuries lasted several months.

Mr. de Wilde asked whether they used methods such as suffocation with a plastic bag or electrocution to avoid open wounds on the back of prisoners.[14] Mr. Khan confirmed this statement. They used electric shocks that sometimes made prisoners unconscious. Some prisoners who did not confess were sometimes executed. Using electrocution was not always successful to extract information. How long they would keep the plastic bag on varied. He never used animal-traps as a form of torture. Some techniques were more effective sometimes.

During the study session, Duch gave examples of an interrogator who had mistreated a prisoner in a way that the prisoner died. One time, an interrogator had burned the reproductive organs of the prisoner. Duch instructed them not to use these methods.

The interrogator was arrested and detained later on. Duch raised this in a meeting as a warning not to use this technique. After receiving the full confession of someone, he contacted the person who was responsible for making copies. Duch would tell them if there was any aspect they had to interrogate the prisoner on any further. He would type and make sure that there was no word missing in the typing before sending the report to the superior. There was no summarized confession and each report had between thirty and forty pages. He put the name of the prisoner and interrogator in the report and then signed it. Mr. de Wilde referred to the confession by Eng Meng Heang alias Chon.[15] The document was provided to the witness. Mr. Khan confirmed that it was his signature, but that someone else had prepared the confession. Mr. de Wilde asked whether he remembered what the person had said. At this point, Ms. Guissé objected and said that this was obtained through torture. Mr. de Wilde referred to confessions by Horn, Ming and Yang.[16] At the end it was specified that they were incomplete confessions. Mr. de Wilde pointed to the last page of the confession.[17] The witness confirmed that it was his signature. He confirmed that he drew up the list, because he was instructed to draw up a list of people who were implicated by the prisoner. Mr. de Wilde asked whether he received instructions that some names of leaders could not be quoted in confessions.

 

Blood withdrawal

He recounted that when he walked back from interrogations, he heard the sound and witnessed that ten prisoners had had their blood withdrawn. Those prisoners fell down near the fence and new prisoners were brought in to have their blood withdrawn. Those prisoners nearly died, but the medic carried them and placed them aside and brought new prisoners in. Mr. de Wilde sought leave to present an S-21 list of 25 October 1977 of the names of the blood-drawing unit.[18]  Mr. de Wilde asked about five names of this unit that were on the list. The witness did not recognize them.

Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether he knew these names, which the witness denied. Mr. de Wilde pointed to the next page. Mr. Khan said that there were increasing numbers of prisoners in 1977. “There were so many prisoners that there was not enough space in the prison for them. Trucks brought them daytime and night time until the 7 January 1979.” In 1977 and 1978, “there were many many people brought in from the Northwest, the North and other zones. Some of them were not brought directly to the prison, but instead sent straight away to Choeung Ek.” This was based on information he had received from guards.

It happened in 1977 and 1978 that Vietnamese prisoners arrived. These prisoners included civilians and soldiers and were brought in together with their spouses. They were ordered to sit down in front of Building A and B. There was an interpreter. They prepared a note on paper that was read out. The scene was filmed and shown to the staff.

Asked about prisoners Phan, Than, and Chan, he said that Ta Chan worked in the kitchen hall. A different person prepared the note for reading.

The President adjourned the hearing. It will continue tomorrow, 28 April 2016 at 9 am with the testimony of this witness. There may be a reserve witness.

 

[1] E3/5156, at 00146613 (KH), 00161568 (EN), 00705389 (FR).

[2] E3/7463, July 21, 2009, at 10:03.

[3] E3/5156, at p. 18 (FR), 6 (EN), p. 6 (KH).

[4] E3/7463, July 21, 2009, at 09:59.

[5] E3/7484.

[6] E3/5463, July 21, at 10:21.

[7] E3/3924R, at 35:52-36:14.

[8] E3/833, at 00242263 (EN), 00007795 (KH).

[9] E3/33, page 40, 00282507 (FR), 00077700 (KH).

[10] E3/5156, p 14 (FR), 9 (EN), 11 (KH),

[11] E3/79, at 00164585 (FR), 00161553-54 (EN), 00146594 (KH).

[12] E3/2220R, between 42:46 and 43:33.

[13] E3/833, at 00077925 (KH), 00373113 (FR).

[14] E3/79, 00161552 (FR), 00145695 (KH).

[15] E3/1549, 00174394 (KH) and 00773344 (KH), 00965739 (FR) and 00965779 (FR). Page 3, 00769685 (EN).

[16] E3/8650.

[17] 00763691 (FR), 00752850 (EN), 00254529 (KH).

[18] E3/2164.