Former S-21 List-Keeper Testifies

Today, June 2, 2016, the Court heard the testimony of former S-21 cadre Suos Thy after nine days of recess. The witness was responsible for drawing lists of incoming and outgoing prisoners at S-21 and kept record of their names, occupation and origin. He did not specify the number of prisoners, but confirmed under questioning of the Co-Prosecution his earlier statement that no prisoner was released. He also gave evidence on the authority structure of the prison.

 

Role of the witness

All parties were present, with Nuon Chea following the hearing from the holding cell. The President announced that 2-TCW-816 would be heard today. He was scheduled to testify for three days.

The door slid open, and witness Suos Thy made his way to the stand in a heavy silence. The President asked preliminary questions, confirming that the witness was born in 1951 in Prek Kev Village, Koh Khel, S’ang District, Kandal Province, where he also currently lives.

The floor was granted to the Co-Prosecution and Civil Party Lawyers for five sessions. Senior Assistant Prosecutor Vincent de Wilde explained that questions were not asked in order to incriminate the witness, but to simply hear his testimony. He then asked where the witness was before April 17, 1975. The witness replied that his school was closed after the coup d’état by Lon Nol in 1970, so he returned to his native village. When hearing Samdech Sihanouk’s appeal to support the Khmer Rouge in early 1971, he was in Koh Khel Commune and joined the movement. He was enlisted into the troop of the Special Zone of Battalion 12 around a year later. He was a combatant in Regiment 23 initially.[1] He remained in the regiment before the fall of the Lon Nol regime and was on the battlefield in Siem Reap Province, where he was wounded. He was reassigned to be trained as a medic in the same battalion number 3, Regiment 123. His wound was not fully healed yet in 1974, which was why he was reassigned to Battalion 112 Office. Huy was the chairman of this battalion. He drew lists about the combatants and ammunition until Phnom Penh fell in 1975. He maintained the lists until around a month after a fall, after which he was reassigned to Battalion 112 as a deputy chief. He was in Regiment 123 for around three months. Battalion 112 was relocated to a pagoda near Prey Sar, at which time Hor took him to work with him. Mr. de Wilde presented two biographies to the witness.[2] The first document was a Brief Biography of Suos Thy and the second one was a longer one, written on June 6, 1977. Mr. de Wilde inquired whether Mr. Thy wrote the biographies himself, which the witness confirmed.

Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether it was correct that he joined the revolutionary movement on August 3, 1971 and the Youth League on January 30, 1973 as indicated in the biography. The witness said that it was his handwriting. He confirmed that the dates were correct, since he wrote the biography. He said that his biography was “not fully scrutinized”, but that he could not be a full party member due to his family background. Mr. de Wilde inquired whether he was deputy chief of Company 23 within Division 112. Mr. Thy answered that he was deputy chief of a group of “a third platoon”. Mr. de Wilde asked whether he was a member when the battalion became part of Division 703. He replied that he could not remember the regiment number clearly. Both were under Division 12, which was  changed to Division 703.

Hor initially took him to the “PJ Location”. At this time, he did not know yet that it was S-21. Hor took him to this location in late 1975, but he could not remember the month.

Mr. de Wilde referred to his biography: this biography indicated that he was transferred to S-21 in December 1975.[3] Hor had not told him where he would work, but only that he would be transferred to Phnom Penh.

Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether he had objected to his assignment to the prison once he realized that it was a prison. The witness denied this:

I could do nothing, because it was an assignment from the upper level. I had to do it.

Asked about his work, Mr. Thy explained that “My main tasks were as follows: Hor assigned me to be in charge of the register or list of prisoners. I was responsible for registering names of incoming and outgoing prisoners. [In particular] I was assigned to write brief biographies”. This included the origin of the prisoners and their functions. He did not know where prisoners were taken for interrogation. He noticed that there were prisoners when he arrived and he was given a list of prisoners, so that he could copy all their names into his document, but he did not know how many prisoners there were. This prompted Mr. de Wilde to read out his previous testimony, in which he had said that there were around 100 prisoners when he arrived.[4] Mr. Thy answered that this was just his estimate. He confirmed that it must have been around this number, but he had not counted the prisoners at the location.

When he arrived mostly former factory workers were imprisoned at the location. Some were internal staff members. However, since it happened “a long time ago”, he could not remember the categories of prisoners well. He did not know in detail the reasons for their arrests.  Prisoners were not released, Mr. Thy said. “It was not in the sphere of my responsibility to know about the taking out of the prisoners”.

 

Ta Khmao

He denied that prisoners were transferred from or to Ta Khmao. Mr. de Wilde asked whether he had heard of Ta Khmao prison, situated in a former psychiatric institute. Mr. Thy replied that he had heard about this prison, but he did not know the person who was in charge of this prison. He had never been there. When Mr. de Wilde asked whether he had heard about prisoners being executed in Ta Khmao, Nuon Chea Defense Counsel Victor Koppe, who had been sitting on the edge of his chair during the questioning, interjected. He objected based on the argument that this was outside the scope of this trial. Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel Anta Guissé backed her colleague and objected on the basis that this was a leading question. Mr. de Wilde replied that there was “an obvious link” between Ta Khmao and S-21. Duch himself had said that prisoners often passed between these two prisons. Moreover, Ta Khmao was related to the possible execution of former Lon Nol soldiers. The President overruled the objections. Mr. de Wilde repeated his question. Mr. Thy replied that he did not know “in detail” what happened at Ta Khmao. Not did he know when or if the prison was closed or whether it had the code name S-21-C. The witness could not recall this. S-21-D was located at Prey Sar.

Next, Mr. de Wilde referred to a list of prisoners who died at S-21-C (S-21-Kor) and showed it to the witness.[5] The Senior Assistant Prosecutor asked whether Mr. Thy was the one who drew this list. Mr. Thy replied that there was an individual called Meng, who was in charge of all lists.

This list has nothing to do with me.

Meng was the one who drew the lists at Ta Khma. Meng was part of Division 12. When Mr. de Wilde put another question about Ta Khmao, which he said was S-21-C, Mr. Koppe objected and said that it had not clearly been established that Ta Khmao was in fact S-21-C, as the witness had testified at an earlier stage that he did not know this.  The objection was overruled and Mr. de Wilde repeated his question. “There was a master list of prisoners, and I did not know, as I said, about the list of prisoners at Ta Khmao”.[6] The witness said that S-21-C (S-21-Kor) was under the management of Division 703 and that he did not know about the tasks performed at this prison. Mr. de Wilde referred to his list.[7] The witness explained that he only focused on maintaining the lists and did not know about other tasks in detail.

 

Prisoners

Mr. de Wilde said that the list indicated that members of the “Long Boret network” were detained, all of which bore the name “Long”.[8] He replied that he did not know their tasks. Mr. de Wilde presented another document of April 11, 1977 and asked whether the witness had drawn up this list.[9] Mr. Thy answered that it was a “master list” that belonged to Ta Nath. Meng drew up a compilation of the list.

When S-21 was moved to Tuol Sleng, Ta Nath was replaced by Duch. Mr. de Wilde asked about the distinction between S-21-A and S-21-C as indicated in the document. Mr. Thy replied that he did not know about the background of prisoners at S-21-C. “PJ was labeled as S-21-A”. Meng drew up the list. Mr. de Wilde asked about a person called Kung Sen, who was labelled as “Arabic”.[10] He wanted to know whether this referred to a nationality or to a Cham person. Mr. Thy replied that he did not pay attention to the role, function and nationality of detainees. Mr. Koppe said that there were two different formats in the Khmer and English version. He said that he failed to see the mentioned name list. The name list was only attached and was not the same document. He therefore asked what the basis of the Prosecution was to submit that the second part of the document was an S-21 document. At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.

 

Instructions

PJ was located close to Psar Thmey, whereas S-21 was located in Ponhea Yat Highschool. He worked at PJ “perhaps for a short period of time”, and was reassigned to the high school in late 1975. He had to perform whatever tasks he was assigned to perform. Mr. de Wilde referred to the witness’s testimony, in which he had talked about “unconditional sacrifices” for the Party.^[11] Mr. de Wilde asked whether this was asked of him at S-21. Mr. Thy answered that he had to show his loyalty and commitment while being at S-21. If he had committed any wrongdoings, he would have been considered an enemy. Hor emphasized that if he had “mixed up the prisoners who had already been interrogated with those who had not yet been interrogated”, he would fall into the category of prisoners as well.

Hor received instructions from Duch. Mr. de Wilde asked whether he received orders from Hor, Duch, Meng, or Mam Nai alias Chan. He replied that he only received orders from Hor. He did not know who Hor was reporting to, but said he had participated in political study sessions with Duch. The questioning seemed to make the Defense team uncomfortable. The witness however said he only attended the meetings “only once in a while”, since he had to fulfill his duties. They would be invited to attend the meeting during the anniversary of the fall of Phnom Penh, for example (which he referred to as the “anniversary of the victory”). This prompted Mr. de Wilde to refer to his Written Record of Interview, in which he had said that each meeting was chaired by Duch and that they were group meetings. He had said that he had had attended major political training sessions only twice, at the first of which Son Sen had delivered a speech.^[12]  Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether he only attended two meetings. Mr. Thy replied that he attended the meetings at the anniversary of 17 of April. “Everyone was invited to the so-called anniversary meetings”, but he did not attend others. Duch was the only speaker at the time, Mr. Thy said. They were taught about the “stances in relation to the revolution” during these meetings. He did not know about the objective of S-21 or the regime as such. “I did not bother poking into other business”. Subject of the discussion was “the victory” and they were assigned to perform their duties properly. He was not given any documents during these study sessions and only had to listen to the speeches. Mr. de Wilde was not getting precise answers to his questions. Pressing on, he read out an excerpt of interrogator Mam Nai’s notebook, who had said that they were “sweeping out” the networks of CIA, KGB and Vietnamese.^[13] Mr. Thy said that he only attended a few meetings. Mr. de Wilde asked whether Duch and Son Sen spoke about the enemies from within and outside during the meetings he attended. Mr. Thy could not recall “the full content of Duch’s speeches”, and that the focus of the speeches were on the victory of 1975.

 

Location of S-21

The witness recounted that S-21 was comprised of “a large geographical area”. It was surrounded by a zinc fence and extended to the sewage canal. There were two levels of fences. One surrounded the prison compound and another one that surrounded the outer premise. The first fence was a wall that was mounted by barbed wire and zinc. The outer fence only consisted of zinc. To his recollection, the wire was not electrified. Hor’s office was located in Ponhea Yat Lycée, but was also used by Mr. Thy. Meng’s office was in a separate location, since he was part of the interrogation unit. He worked closely with Duch, but not with Mr. Thy. The interrogation locations were located far away from the prison compound in the outer part. Prisoners would be interrogated in separate houses. He worked and lived in the same office and remained there “24 hours a day”.

Mr. de Wilde asked whether he had to control the entrances and exits of prisoners on his lists. Asked about a Special Prison, Mr. Thy recounted that there was a prison outside the main compound designed to host “senior people”. He did not “have a full grasp” of people who were detained at the Special Prison. He became aware of the special prisoners when these prisoners were brought from the Special Prison to the main building. Mr. de Wilde inquired whether he understood him correctly that this meant that the Special Prison was disintegrated at some point. Mr. Thy replied that the Special Prison was first located outside the compound, but was moved into the main compound. The location for Special Prisoners was located in the south of the compound.

 

S-21 Authority Structure and Chain of Command

Mr. de Wilde inquired whether he was working for S-21 A, B or D section. He replied that he could not recall the full details regarding these sections. However, the location for special prisoners was located to the left when entering the compound.

Mr. de Wilde wanted to know why he was part of the guard unit when taking lists, and asked whether he referred to S-21 B here. Mr. Thy replied that Hor was in charge of the unit. Mr. Thy was part of the guard unit under S-21 B. The cook was also part of the guard unit. Only the photographer, typists and interrogators belonged to another unit. The latter ones were part of the interrogation unit, so S-21 A. Meng was arrested at some point. After his arrest, S-21 A office was separated and split up into various entities. Duch was in charge overall, had several messengers, and received reports by Hor. He had heard about Mam Nai alias Chan and Pon, but he did not know the positions they held at the time. Meng was in charge of three units: the rice farming unit, the interrogation unit, and the guard unit. The witness did not know about the coordination of the different units. The witness delivered the list to Meng, who in turn would deliver the list to Duch.

The medical unit belonged to S-21 B, so the guard unit, under the supervision of Hor. Mr. de Wilde referred to his earlier testimony, in which he had said that the medical unit was part of S-21 A at first, but changed to S-21 B after a few medics had been arrested.^[14] Mr. Thy explained that he did not know about the previous arrangement with the medical unit before he arrived at S-21. It was part of S-21 B while he was at S-21, since they reported to Hor. Medics were former members of Division 703. “To my understanding, all of those medics were later arrested and they were replaced by forces from Amleang”.

Mr. de Wilde wanted to know who led S-21 D (or S-24) and what the duties were of this unit. Mr. Thy replied that it was a rice farming unit. Huy was in charge of this unit. This person had been his former commander in the unit.

Mr. Koppe interjected and sought clarification with regards to the scope of the trial, since it was his understanding that S-24 (Prey Sar) was not included in the severance order of the Trial Chamber. Mr. de Wilde argued that it was included. International Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyer Marie Guiraud argued that none of the accused would be sentenced over Prey Sar. However, as she understood the severance order, Prey Sar may come up during the proceedings. Mr. Koppe said that the severance order had explicitly excluded this crime site. The confusion was palpable. After deliberating with the Bench, the President announced that this needed to “be debated properly”, and that they would deliberate the matter during the lunch break. He then adjourned the hearing.

 

Compilation of lists

After the break, the President issued the oral ruling regarding Prey Sar. He announced that Prey Sar was not part of Case 002/02. However, it was related to the creation and functioning of S-21, which was why it was relevant. Moreover, Ta Khmao Hospital was relevant to the treatment of Lon Nol soldiers. Thus, questions related to these topics were permitted.

The floor was handed back to the Co-Prosecutors. Mr. de Wilde inquired whether he drew these lists on his own or whether he worked with others. Mr. Thy said that only he registered the incoming and outgoing prisoners. Sometimes, the register was not compiled properly and he was assisted by “a young man” to register prisoners. This young boy was called Lann and fourteen or fifteen years old. This person was responsible for asking the names and origins of Vietnamese prisoners. This person did not have other tasks. As for the interrogation of prisoners, he did not know any details, since they were taken at another place. He could not recall the names of the Vietnamese prisoners.

Mr. de Wilde asked whether he remembered the name Phan alias Chan. Mr. Thy replied that he did not know the person Phan “very well”, but that he knew someone called Chan. The latter interpreted the relevant information for incoming Vietnamese prisoners, such as name, occupation and origin. They were “pressed to do the best” when performing their duties.

Mr. de Wilde read an excerpt of Phan alias Chan’s interview.[15] He had said that they had to eliminate those who were not “pure”. In the interview, he was asked what “pure” meant, and answered: “respectful”, “obedient”, “docile” and they would “cut when asked to cut, and burn when asked to burn”. Mr. de Wilde asked whether the witness agreed with the distinction made between the pure and the impure. Mr. Thy answered that they were afraid of doing something wrong, since they would be imprisoned otherwise.

Mr. de Wilde asked whether prisoners were entitled to look at their files, to have a lawyer and be tried by judges and other elements of a fair trial, which the witness denied.

Mr. de Wilde then inquired whether he was allowed “to feel anything” or “to pity” the prisoners. He replied that they had to focus on their work and did not bother “having any kind of sentiments”. They had to perform their tasks assigned to them. “If we had [done] anything other than our job, we would have been considered enemies”.

 

No surviving prisoners

Mr. de Wilde sought leave to present an excerpt of Rithy Panh’s “The Killing Machine”, which was granted.[16] This excerpt showed the witness saying that he considered the prisoners as already dead and that they had to obey the saying that “better to make a wrong arrest than to let the enemy eat of us from within.” He confirmed that the prisoners were already considered dead and that they never returned home: “I never saw them as human beings – in my mind, they were already dead”. This chilled the whole room. He also confirmed that this meant that every prisoner would die. He “felt sympathy” for the prisoners, but could not “do anything” for them. “So I could not help them”.

Mr. de Wilde asked whether he ever heard the expression that it was better to arrest ten people in error than to let go one guilty person. He replied that this was “a kind of slogan from others”. However, he did not know “whether this was really what they meant”. He affirmed that no prisoners were released. “It was a rare occasion that prisoners were released and survived”. All prisoners were dead. Mr. de Wilde sought clarification about these rare occasions. The witness repeated that it “was a rare occasion” that prisoners were released and allowed to go back home. Mr. de Wilde said that he had said on 27 July 2009 that “no one was released”.[17] Confronted with this statement, he said now that

not a single prisoner was released.

No prisoners were transferred to Prey Sar, he said.

When Mr. de Wilde asked about people potentially sent to Prey Sar directly, Ms. Guissé objected to this question, saying that the question referred to prisoners who had not gone through his office. She said that it had to be established whether he knew about these people. Mr. de Wilde answered that he wanted to find out whether the witness had knowledge about this or not. The objection was overruled. The witness said that prisoners were not transferred to Prey Sar. Mr. de Wilde inquired whether some prisoners were transferred from S-21 D to Prey Sar. Prisoners were registered on a list, including their names and positions.

Mr. de Wilde presented a prisoners’ list to the witness. He referred to prisoners numbers 1 to 10.[18] This showed that the list also indicated that the persons came from S-21-D. The witness said that he was not certain about the matter. “They could possibly be sent from Division 703 to Prey Sar or S-21 D”. Mr. de Wilde asked whether the references in the columns that listed the cells matched the system that was used at S-21. Mr. Koppe objected for two reasons: first, he argued, the Prosecution was leading the witness, and second, the document did not mention S-21 in itself.  The objection was overruled. Answering the question, the witness replied that the cell numbers did not match the ones at S-21. The ones at S-21 included the number of the building, the room, and the cell itself. Mr. de Wilde presented a document to the witness.[19] Mr. de Wilde gave a list entitled List of Prisoners Executed from 1 November 1976 to 15 November 1976 and wanted to know whether the witness himself had drawn up the list. Mr. Thy replied that he could not remember this list, but that it was probably from Meng. He pointed to number 1 until 69 and asked whether he recognized the system of entry. He replied that the list that he drew up had no comments. It could have been a consolidated list and forwarded to Duch. Mr. de Wilde inquired whether he had to draw up these kinds of lists that indicated the executions of prisoners and whether he was supposed to do so every two weeks. Ms. Guissé objected to the use of the word to executioners. Mr. Koppe interjected and said that the witness would not be able to say something about this list, if this list indeed indicated a list of prisoners of Prey Sar that were executed there. Moreover, if these were from Prey Sar, it would fall outside the scope of the trial. Mr. de Wilde explained, trying to contain his exasperation towards the objections of the Defense, that the list indicated that they were from S-21 D. The objections were overruled, and the questioning continued, as Ms. Guissé shook her head in disapproval. The witness said that this list had been drawn up by another person. He did not pay attention to the incoming and outgoing prisoners of S-21 D.

 

Number of prisoners

Mr. de Wilde then wanted to know whether the number of prisoners increased over time when he was there. He replied that the number of prisoners varied over time. They came from different zones, including from the North and Northwest Zone sometimes.

Mr. de Wilde presented another document to the witness.[20] He confirmed that such lists existed. He denied having been the one having drawn up such a list. They were compiled by Hor. The list of incoming and outgoing prisoners would be seen in “the master list”. Mr. de Wilde asked whether there were around a thousand prisoners at a time. Mr. Thy answered that he did not know how this number was totaled by the author of the document. He could not recall the total number of a prisoner at a time.

At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.

 

Registration of prisoners

In the last session, Mr. de Wilde asked whether the prison was ever full or whether there was room for taking in new detainees. Mr. Thy said that he did not know whether Duch ever issued “such instructions” and rarely came into the compound. There was a system on the list that indicated which cell they were in. Mr. de Wilde wanted to know how the witness knew that people had to leave the prison in order to be executed. He replied that there were annotations on the margin of the lists, for example “kom” or “komtech”. This word meant to smash. Mr. de Wilde referred to his Written Record of Interview, in which the witness had said that Duch wrote “X” to signify execution.[21] Mr. Thy said that he never saw Duch annotate “ex” but only “kom”. Mr. de Wilde asked whether Duch took a decision to have hundreds of prisoners executed on certain days. Mr. Thy said that he did not see Duch in person very often. Instead, he would see the annotations on the list. Mr. de Wilde referred to a list of 29 May 1978 titled List of Prisoners Who Were Smashed on 27 May 1978.^[22] There were around 400 people from the East Zone in there. Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether he recognized this list and whether he had been ordered to draw up this list. Mr. Thy answered that this seemed to be a consolidated list. To his knowledge, it would “not be possible to deal with this number of prisoners per day”. Mr. Thy assumed that they were brought in at different times. Mr. de Wilde clarified that different entry dates were indeed indicated, but that the execution date was the same. Mr. Koppe interjected and said that the English translation seemed like it was one continuous list, while the Khmer version made it clear that there were several lists, including different fonts and the like. Mr. de Wilde pointed to the first page of the document and asked whether he recognized the handwriting of the annotation. The witness reiterated that it was not possible for 500 prisoners to be taken out on one day. There was an apparent confusion between entry dates, which the witness was referring to, and dates of execution, which Mr. de Wilde was referring to.

Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether he saw more than a hundred people arriving at S-21 at one time. He answered that he saw large numbers of prisoners being brought in from the East Zone. On several occasions there were one hundred of them in one day. When Mr. de Wilde further inquired about arrival of prisoners, Mr. Koppe objected and said that there was no basis for the question, since the Khmer version made it clear that it was not a single list. Shaking his head, Mr. de Wilde said that “I believe that my colleague Mr. Koppe should listen” to what was happening in court. He had asked about the procedure to register the massive arrival of prisoners on one day: did he have to change procedures? Mr. Thy replied that prisoners would usually be brought in in a group of 30 persons. He worked together with the young boy he had mentioned earlier. “When we proceeded this way it was efficient”. They only wrote down brief biographies of each prisoner. Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether he at times went to the detention center itself to draw a summary of the prisoners who arrived.[23] Mr. de Wilde clarified that the list he had referred to was only one list and not a compilation of different lists, since he had only referred to a specific set of ERNs.[24] Mr. de Wilde asked how he drew the lists. Mr. Ty said that there were pre-printed forms. Mr. de Wilde proceeded to present three biographies to the witness. The one of Bak Khna alias Kim, ^[25] of Phal Va, alias Nath [26] and of Ung Sok.[27] He said that he would usually write in the blank. The version presented to him was different to his lists. He explained that they had a template, in which he would fill out the blanks with his hands. He did not know who actually typed the list. There were a number of typists that used typewriters. The biography was similar to the one that Mr. Thy did.

 

Special Prisoners and children

The daily tasks needed to be done as soon as possible. He could not recall the two prisoners that had been mentioned by Mr. de Wilde. Child prisoners usually did not go through his office and would be put into the special location immediately. He did not register them. They were not allowed to know about the prisoners from the divisional levels upwards. The Special Prisoners went directly to the Special Prison. Sometimes he was advised by Hor to list Special Prisoners in a list. He was not given the names of special prisoners, since he did not register them. Mr. de Wilde inquired whether he ever saw the names Koy Thuon and Ta Nath on the list, which the witness confirmed. “Usually, I would not have all those names”. Mr. de Wilde wanted to know whether children came with their parents, which the witness confirmed. He did not include them on his list. Children below 15 years old were not listed on the list of names. He did not know the age of the children. They were usually with their parents. He could not remember whether he included the names of the children who came with their parents on the lists.

Mr. de Wilde said that the consolidated list by the Office of the Co-Investigating Judges indicated the imprisonment of children. He pointed to four children (566, 12,623, 12,660, 14,623) and said that the first one, Nim, was six years old and was the daughter of Brother 10. He could not remember this. He pointed to Phing Otreng, or Yang, who was seven years old and executed the day after the entry.[28] The witness said that his memory was not good and that he could not recall this.

The babies and toddlers were not separated from their mothers by guards. He did not know whether they were separated later when they were in the cells. When Mr. de Wilde asked whether children were taken out at the same time as their parents, Mr. Koppe interjected. He said that the list of the OCIJ referred to the list by the Prosecution and that the original documents were not translated. Thus, they could not verify whether the child mentioned by Mr. de Wilde had in fact been executed. The defense should have at least the opportunity to comment on this. If this was in fact the working strategy, they were working under an “illusion” or giving proper rights to the defense. Mr. de Wilde answered that once again, he had moved on to the next line of questioning and was asking whether generally, children were taken out at the same time as their parents. The witness replied that it depended on Hor who instructed to bring them out or not.

Mr. de Wilde referred to his previous testimony, in which he had said that Hor instructed Peng “to bring them in”. He had said that there were no children who were brought at the same time as the adults, but that he was not sure whether they were killed close to S-21, since no list was drawn.[29] Mr. de Wilde asked why they were not transported out at the same time as their parents. He replied that “the information would be leaked out” if children were taken out at the same time as their parents.

Mr. de Wilde asked whether children were taken out before or after their parents had been taken out for execution. He replied that children were mostly taken out before the removal of their parents.

 

List of prisoners

Turning to his last line of questioning, Mr. de Wilde said that he had identified a number of prisoners. Mr. de Wilde sought leave to present two lists of prisoners who entered S-21 on 6 January 1978 and 11 January 1978 respectively.[30] The request was granted. Mr. de Wilde also pointed that both lists had the name “Suos Thy” on the bottom. Mr. de Wilde asked whether he had established these lists. Mr. Thy replied that he indeed had compiled these lists. Prisoners were usually received by the guard unit. In most of the cases, the guard unit outside the compound received the prisoners under the supervision of Huy.

The President adjourned the hearing. It will continue tomorrow, June 3 2016, at 9 am with the testimony of Suos Thy. At this point, Mr. de Wilde requested one additional session to question the witness tomorrow.

Mr. Koppe said that their request for additional time for Prak Khan had been denied. They had filed a request to recall this witness. The objections that slowed down the questioning of the prosecution, he said, had been justified. If the Chamber granted this request, Mr. Koppe argued, the Chamber should also grant the request by the defense team in relation to Prak Khan. Mr. de Wilde said that the circumstances were “very different”, as the defense team’s request had come late in the day and required more sessions. Here, Mr. de Wilde anticipated this need for more time earlier in the day and was only asking for one additional session. The President announced that the ruling about the Co-Prosecution’s request would be issued in an e-mail by a senior legal officer, while the request by the defense team would also be ruled upon soon. In a tense atmosphere, the President then adjourned the hearing.

[1] This was probably a translation error and the witness said Regiment 123.

[2] E3/9320, at 00885189 (EN), 00887840 (FR), 00051642 (KH) and E3/10570.

[3] Page 4 in English and 5 in French, at 01241616 (FR).

[4] E3/7465, at 13:56:38.

[5] E3/1539, and E3/1540. Page 4 in French (00006747), page 12 in English.

[6] E3/10568, at page 2 in all languages.

[7] E3/1539.

[8] See numbers 44, 50, 136, 150.

[9] E3/8493, at page 00095505 (KH), page 1 (EN) 00181623 (EN), no French translation.

[10] Number 5.

[11] E3/10570, point 16.

[12] E3/7603, at page 8 (FR), 00146799 (EN), 00145610-11 (KH).

[13] E3/833, at 00077663 (KH), no English translation.

[14] E3/7465, at 14:07:41.

[15] E3/2352, at 04:28.

[16] E3/2330R

[17] E3/7465, at 16:28.

[18] E3/2277, at pp. 1 and 2.

[19] E3/3187, at 0008845-46 (KH), 00874401-11 (EN), no French translation available.

[20] E3/2164, at 0008076-77 (KH), 00181693-94 (EN), 00845961-62 (FR).

[21] E3/7643, at 01226635 (FR), p. 9 in English and French.

[22] E3/8463.

[23] E3/7465.

[24] E3/8643, at 00016039-74 (KH), 01032507-36 (EN).

[25] E3/3466

[26] E3/1533

[27] E3/1532.

[28] E3/93.2.

[29] E3/7466, at 10:05:06.

[30] E3/2020, 00087046-47 (KH), and E3/2242.

 

Featured Image: Witness Suos Thy (ECCC: Flickr).