“Everybody was Afraid of Everybody” – Witness Testifies on Internal Purges

After more than three weeks of recess, the Trial Chamber resumed its hearing today and heard the testimony of witness 2-TCW-1005 in relation to internal purges. The Co-Prosecution probed the witness on authority structures and arrests as well as the content of Revolutionary Flags. The witness, who fell under the protection guidelines by the Co-Investigating Judges and was therefore only addressed by his pseudonym, had worked as a messengers during the Khmer Rouge regime and spoke about a climate of mistrust amongst the cadres.

 

Preliminary Issues

The President announced that the testimony of 2-TCW-1005 would be heard. Judge You Ottara was absent for personal reasons and was replaced by Thou Mony. All parties were present.

Before starting with the testimony of 2-TCW-1005, responses to Co-Prosecution request E319/48/1 and the Nuon Chea Defense Team request to admit a few documents were heard. No objections were raised by any party, but Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel Anta Guissé said that she had not been able to access annotations to documents. International Deputy Co-Prosecutor William Smith requested to make these available to the defense.

To protect the witness, the President instructed the parties to use the witness’s pseudonym.[1] The witness was unable to read the document due to his poor eyesight to confirm his identity. A counsel read the information to him, which the witness then confirmed. The floor was granted to the Co-Prosecution.

 

Joining the Revolution

Mr. Smith asked the witness where he was brought up and whether he was born in Tram Kok District in Sector 13. The witness confirmed this. He also confirmed that he was given the opportunity to read the interviews conducted with him by DC-Cam.

He joined the Khmer Rouge on the March 15, 1973. He could remember this date, because the biography was collected. He could recall the content of this biography. After living in the forest for three or four month next to a mountain, his biography was collected. He was based in Angkor Chey first in Office 106, which belonged to the messengers of Sector 13. This belonged to the Southwest Zone. There were four sectors in this zone.

Mr. Smith then proceeded to inquire about the mother of the witness. The witness explained that she joined the revolution when he was still in his birth village. After 1975, she lived with her family in Kirirom and joined Office 150.

Office 150 belonged to the sector to the knowledge of the witness. After joining this office, “women could move to work in other regions to transport the wounded people”. They were also transporting lettuce as assigned to do so by the cadres of the district.

 

Family Connections to Senior Cadres

Inquiring further about his family, Mr. Smith wanted to know how his father died in 1976, as he had indicated in his statement. The witness answered that he joined the movement of the CPK and heard that he was arrested, but he could not recall the incident well. His father went to Oral at some point, but he did not know any details about his arrest. Mr. Smith wanted to know whether his father knew Son Sen. The witness answered that “they were perhaps friends, since they joined the movement together. Later, [Son Sen] had relation with me until the time that he died.”

Mr. Smith read an excerpt of the witness’s interview, in which he had said that he was alive today, because his father had “good connections”.[2] The witness answered that he “he had connections with my father, and after I had no father anymore, I was asked about my biography and he started to learn that I was the son of my father, so I had relations or connections with him”.

The witness said that he joined the movement voluntarily and had not been forced to do so. He was a teenager at the time. His teachers at Angk Ta Saom joined demonstrations but were shot dead later. He decided to join the revolution to fight Lon Nol because of this and joined it with senior people. In Sector 13, there were offices 150 and 160, the former being for women. The witness was part of Office 160. He recalled that Sector 13 consisted of Tram Kok Angkor Chey, Tran, Prey Kabba, and Samroang District, and others. Mr. Smith asked whether Kirivong District was also in Sector 13 at the time, which the witness confirmed. It was in District 109 in Sector 13.

 

Working as a Messenger

The witness worked as a messenger on a rotation basis. Thus, the messengers were not based in one location. Mr. Smith inquired whether it was correct that he was an Office 160 messenger until September 1975 and wanted to know whether it was therefore correct that he was a messenger for around two and a half years. The witness affirmed this. He was based in Angkor Chey region at the time and was moved to another part of the same region later. Mr. Smith asked whether he moved to Kirivong District in March 1977. The witness corrected this account and said that he moved to Kratie later. He moved to Kirivong in September 1975.

Mr. Smith wanted to know whether it was correct that he stayed in Kirivong from September 1975 until March 1977.[3] The witness answered that if he had said so in his statement, it must have been this way.

 

 

Authority Structure

Turning to the authority structure of the sector, Mr. Smith inquired who was in charge of Sector 13 when he was in Angkor Chey. He replied that it was Saom. The deputy was Phoeu Paem.

Mr. Smith said that he referred to Ta Muth in Sector 13 and asked what his position was when he was in the area. The witness recounted that he moved to Division 3 later.

Mr. Smith further inquired where his office was located in Angkor Chey in 1975. He recounted that they moved to Damrei Romeas and then to a location near a National Road in Angkor Chey. He could not recall all the occasions that he delivered mail. Mr. Smith asked whether Ta Saom, the sector secretary of Sector 13, was ever replaced while the witness was stationed there. The witness recounted that Ta Saom took Ta Muth’s position when the latter left. Ta Saom was replaced later.

“From what I understand, Ta Saom got sick and got reassigned to Phnom Penh.”

Mr. Smith inquired whether it was correct that Ta Saom was replaced by Ta Choeun later. The witness answered that he was not familiar with that name. Mr. Smith corrected his pronunciation and asked whether he knew Choeun and read out an excerpt in which he had referred to this individual.[4] This excerpt talked about the arrest of cadres. The witness confirmed the account and said that the individual was called Choeun. He said that this individual replaced Saom and worked with Vorn Vet at some point.

Mr. Smith referred to a record of prisoners who were detained at S-21.[5] Before putting this list to the witness, Mr. Smith inquired whether he had heard of such an office. The witness confirmed this and said that he had heard of it during the regime. He only knew at the time that it belonged to the state and that only senior people were detained at the office and was not meant for lower cadres. After the fall of the Khmer Rouge regime, he got to know that some of his relatives were detained and died at S-21, for example his uncle.

 

 

Assignments to different locations

After the break, the President announced that the Chamber could not issue an oral ruling now about the document that the Nuon Chea Defense Team and the Co-Prosecution had requested respectively.

Mr. Smith then continued his questioning. The Deputy Co-Prosecutor said that the witness had said that he was in Kirivong until March 1977 and then in Kratie. He asked about the arrest of Ta Saom and a “series of arrests” in Sector 13, which he had mentioned in his statement: did it occur in 1977? The witness confirmed this.

“After I had moved to Kratie, members of the sector committee were arrested. (…) There was a series of arrests.”

Mr. Smith then asked whether Ta Saom was arrested because he was connected to Yeay Yut’s husband.[6] The witness recalled that Ta Saom was arrested after being sent to Phnom Penh. “He was not arrested at his base in fact”. He was from the east part. He also confirmed that Yeay Yut was Prak Yut. She was sent from Kampot to Kampong Cham and was then the Deputy Secretary of Kampong Siem Sector. At the end of 1978, her husband was arrested and she was sent to the Central Zone. Before the arrival of the Vietnamese, she was further sent to Battambang. Her husband was arrested, because it was said that he was a former student and connected to the KTB network, since he was from the east. He was arrested and executed after having been sent to Kampot. This was “perhaps in late 1978”. It was said that Ta Saom had a lung disease and was sent to Phnom Penh. He was put in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but was consequently removed. “It was said that he had links to suspicious activities”.

Mr. Smith referred to an excerpt of a prisoners list. This showed the name Saom Choeun. When the name was shown on the screen, Mr. Koppe objected and said that the document was not a contemporaneous document. Moreover, the witness had said in one interview that this witness was still alive today.[7] Mr. Smith said that the defense had used this strategy “on numerous occasions” and that it served to clarify whether Saom Choeun referred to one person or two. After briefly conferring with the bench, the President overruled the objection. This list indicated that he was the Deputy Secretary of Angkor Chey District and Treang, before he went to the Sector 13 Office in the Southwest Zone and then the Economic Office before being arrested. It indicated that he was executed on the December 27, 1978.

The witness confirmed that this was the person called Saom that he had referred to. He had heard that the arrest of Saom took place, because he had “links to the network”. Vorn Vet was arrested after a machinery in a factory broke down.

Mr. Smith then inquired why he went from Angkor Chey to Kirivong. In Kirivong, there were around 20 or 30 messengers. He confirmed that he was sent to work as a messenger, because he had experience at such. Mr. Smith inquired what functions Ta Tom and Ta Tith had in Kirivong. He replied that Ta Tith was part of the Kirivong District Committee, but was also linked to the sector. He attended meetings at the district and sat next to Ta Saom. Ta Tith was senior to Ta Tom. The witness’s office was in Sla Village, which was next to the Vietnamese border – only one district separated it from the border. He estimated that it was around 15 kilometers away. Ta Tom’s office was at Pou Prik, while Ta Tith’s office was elsewhere. There were around two communes in between their offices and the witness’s office. He estimated that the distance between Sla Village and their office was “a little bit less than 20 kilometers”.

 

Enemies of the CPK

Mr. Smith then turned to his next topic. He asked about meetings in which enemies of the CPK were discussed and read an excerpt.[8] The witness recounted that they discussed KTB and CIA. “But they did not mention the hunger suffered by the people”. They were asked to eliminate KTB and CIA agents. This matter was not often raised during military meeting, since these meetings focused on strategy at the border. Mr. Smith asked whether he was taught about the content of the Revolutionary Flags during the time of Democratic Kampuchea.[9] Senior cadres used the magazines to teach them in 1977 during the study sessions, the witness said.

“It was due to the strict guidelines that nobody trusted anyone.” People were afraid of the content of the Revolutionary Flags. “We would dare to sacrifice ourselves for the party”. He explained that this was because of the content of the Revolutionary Flags and of the Party itself. “Everybody was afraid of everybody else, and people did not trust each other”. He was the youngest of the Party, since they were usually only entitled to become member of the Party when they were 25 years old, while he was 19 years old.

Mr. Smith wanted to know what he thought the magazines meant when it was stated that “We must take absolute measure in zero tolerance”. The witness elaborated on this matter by saying that they had to be rigid with regards to enemies. Some people did not take an absolute stance in purging people. When Mr. Smith asked whether he meant with this that people were “not prepared to kill others”, Mr. Koppe objected and said that it was a leading question, since “purging, we have established, is not killing” in general – it also meant re-educating. Mr. Smith rephrased his question. The witness explained that they had to be loyal to the Party and that it was difficult to understand who to purge. “Within the party, the purging was not that clear”. He said that they would come to search the background in the person’s native village. They would be purged from the party ranks. Only the senior cadres knew who traitors were.

At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for the lunch break.

After the break, Mr. Smith inquired whether cadres were afraid of each other and were worried that some cadres would report on each other “for having some enemy traits”. Mr. Koppe objected to the question and explained that this question led to speculation. Mr. Smith rephrased the question. The witness explained that the cadres in Kratie would be afraid of those in the Southwest Zone if cadres in Kratie were arrested. He would not trust the local cadres when he was sent to another location. Other cadres in Kratie accused him of not fighting the Vietnamese hard enough. In late 1978, the situation intensified. At this point, Vietnamese were fighting them. The other cadres from other regions did not trust them.

 

Meetings

In meetings, they were “criticizing each other to improve our performances”. For example, they would discuss how much fuel he would use with his motorbike and how much time he spent on delivering letters.

Mr. Smith read out an excerpt of the witness, in which he had talked about self-criticism meetings.[10] He wanted to know who were perceived to be enemies of the Communist Party. He recounted that “soldiers themselves created the events within the army itself, so these events had impacts on other soldiers”. Khieu was the head of Sector 13 and disappeared. He sometimes served meals to Khieu, but did not know what happened to him subsequently, as he did not know what happened to people “on the ground” in general.

He once visited his district, perhaps in 1978, when he saw Kampuchea Krom people who joined the army. He visited his mother in Kirivong once.

Mr. Smith said that he had indicated in his interview that he was seen as being affiliated with the KTB and asked why he had said this. He said he did not understand the question.

Mr. Smith then inquired whether New People were implicated because of their associations with capitalism and other Western concepts. The witness replied that he could “understand some of it”. Cadres from the province, district and commune would divide people into different categories, such as capitalists, KTB, and the like. This was discussed in the meetings. “We heard from one another and trust were no longer had on those people who were considered in the aforementioned categories.” Mr. Smith then inquired about the destiny of those people who were implicated as being related to the Vietnamese. The witness answered that “danger would bestowed on them” if this happened. “The commune and district would no longer trust them” and some of them would disappear.

He recounted that his aunt had a Cham husband and still bore “a grudge against me”. The people who fell into these categories “would be in dangerous situations”.  Mr. Smith wanted to know whether being placed in these categories would mean to be killed. He replied that he did not see the situation itself, since he “was not involved with the people on the ground”. He merely heard that people had died when he returned from the battlefield every now and then. When Mr. Smith probed the witness further on the situation in Kirivong and asked whether there was a security center in this area, Mr. Koppe interjected again and said that this went beyond the scope of the trial. Mr. Smith replied that it related to the credibility of the witness, purges, and the enemy situation in general. To the witness’s knowledge, people were detained at a pagoda.

Mr. Smith further asked whether he was familiar with the security center Kraing Ta Chang, which he denied.

 

Lon Nol Soldiers and Servants

Asked about Lon Nol soldiers and civil servants, the witness recounted that people were categorized as New People.

After he had left for Kratie, he heard that the Kirivong District Secretary had been arrested. This prompted Mr. Smith to inquire why Ta Tom was arrested. He replied that he did not know the exact reasons.

Mr. Smith referred to the witness’s statement.[11] The witness could not give further detail, but stood by his previous statement.

Mr. Smith then said that he had talked about a person called Ta Nam who had studied in Vietnam “during the war” and that he was removed from his position by Ta Mok because of his connection to Vietnam.[12] The witness confirmed that Ta Nam lived in Kirivong. He was military commander of Sector 13 and his wife was called Koeun.

 

Cleaning the ranks

Mr. Smith wanted to know what he had meant when he said in his interview that Ta Nam was “not swept clean”. He replied that his wife was in the Kirivong District Committee. Ta Nam was later on “swept clean” with Ta Tom.

Mr. Smith then asked about a Revolutionary Flag, in which it was said that they had “managed to sweep clean” of enemies within the Party.[13] The witness said that it meant to kill but could not give further details.

Mr. Smith gave some references and asked why Ta Mok sent cadres from the Southwest Zone to other zones in Cambodia.[14] The witness replied that he had no detailed understanding.

Mr. Smith read an excerpt, in which he had said that they had to “change positions” because of traitorous activities.[15] Having heard this excerpt the witness said that he could understand this matter now. There were purges of cadres, “because they did not trust one another”. The cadres from the West replaced those from the Southwest, he said, and vice versa.

 

Ta Mok

Mr. Smith wanted to know why Ta Saom would not dare to oppose Ta Mok.[16] The witness answered that he was “close to him”.  Whenever “Ta” mentioned reshuffling of the cadres, Ta Saom would not dare to protest. “I was a messenger located outside the meeting […]. I could hear the content of the discussions”. Ta Mok was powerful, and

“people loved him. […] Whatever he said was liked by the soldiers.”

The witness did not know about orders by Ta Mok to kill.

 

Mr. Smith asked whether he was aware of the authority of a Zone Standing Committee to be able to smash inside and outside the ranks from 30 March 1976 onwards.[17] The witness said that he did not know, since this as a matter of the higher ranks. At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.

 

 

Oral rulings of the bench

After the break, the President issued four oral rulings:

• relating to the request by the Nuon sChea Defense Team to admit a document:[18] the document was admitted and given document number E3/10639
• A request to admit a CV relating to an article written by Henri Locard.[19] The document was admitted.
• A request by the Co-Prosecution to admit chapters of a book. The request was granted. It was assigned E3/10640.
• The remainder of the request was moot, since Michael Vickery would not testify as scheduled.

 

Cadres Sent to Phnom Penh

Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel remarked that one document had annotations. There was some discussion about documents to be admitted and some confusions about a request by the Co-Prosecution. The President announced that documents were admitted.

The floor was granted to the Co-Prosecution to continue their examination. The witness said that he was the deputy chief of Office 117 in Kratie. The office was located near Kroh Kor Bridge. The location was used to store ammunition. He was in charge of the radio operations and provide necessities to the battlefield. At this time, “the Vietnamese were really fighting strenuously against us.”

The secretary of 505 in Kratie included Moeun and Khon. However, he was uncertain about details. Commander of Division 117 was Leang and Mong. Leang was the second member. Number one was Rom and the third member was Mong. He confirmed his statement that Mr. Smith read out and recounted that new cadres replaced the old cadres, who were sent to Phnom Penh “when the situation intensified”.[20] Muth arrived with his entire division.

Mr. Smith then asked whether he remembered when the senior leadership was called for and sent on an airplane to Phnom Penh. [21]  The witness answered that he saw the letter only. He was told that a plane would arrive and he saw the letter announcing this. Two regiments, two divisions, and other “concerned people” came to Phnom Penh by plane. He read the letter to the divisional commander. He went to see Muth to read the letter to him. After their arrival, they never returned to their original place. Phon replaced Moeun and Pok replaced Yeang.

There was an event through which he learned that his leaders were considered traitors.

Mr. Smith then wanted to know how he knew that the letter was from Office M-70. He said that they were sure that it belonged to Office 870, since they saw the writing. There was no stamp or seal. Rom would usually receive the message. The recipient was mentioned clearly.

As for Nim, “he was engaged in the battlefield, and he could not make it and come to Phnom Penh.”

Mr. Smith further asked whether any reason was indicated on the letter of why they should go to Phnom Penh. He replied that he did not know. The wounded soldiers were transported by airplane from Ratanakiri and Mondulkiri. People from the divisional level and other levels were invited.

He drove the delegation in several vehicles. They reached a blockade at some point and their vehicles were not allowed to go in. From that point, the others walked beyond the blockade. After this, he went to Mondulkiri. When he returned, he heard that the senior leadership was arrested.

Mr. Smith inquired whether Sector 505 Secretary Moeun was on the plane that day. The witness replied that he knew Rom. Leang came first, and after this Rom. Leang came by sea. He did not see him arrive. Leang went by boat. He was on a ship transporting the soldiers who were not seriously wounded as well as ammunition. He did not see Leang on the plane. Mr. Smith asked whether Rom was with him on the airplane, which the witness confirmed. Yeang, who was a friend of Rom’s, also came with them. Chhin, alias Phorn, Snuol District Secretary, was there too. Moeun was also with them on that particular day and were in the same convoy.

When Mr. Smith asked whether Khon, part of the sector committee, was there, the witness recounted that he drove them off together with the messengers. When he dropped his passengers off, he turned around again. He could not Nym, but could recall someone called Nim. The National Co-Prosecutor clarified that he referred to an individual called Svay Nhong, which the witness could not recall.

The President adjourned the hearing. It will continue tomorrow, July 26, 2016, at 9 am with this witness’s testimony.

 

 

 

[1] See E319/35.

[2] E3/9647, 01212334-35 (EN), 00975756-57 (KH), 00996596-97 (FR).

[3] E3/9513, at answer 35.

[4] E3/9647, 01212271-73 (EN), 00975716 (KH), 00996556-57 (FR).

[5] E3/93.2

[6] E3/9647, at 01212270-71 (EN), 00975715 (KH), 00996555 (FR).

[7] E3/10622.

[8] E3/10622, at 01170587-88 (EN), 01136708-09 (KH), no French translation available.

[9] E3/135, at 00142905 (EN), 00062803 (KH), 00487719 (FR)

[10] E3/10622, at 01170587-88, 001136708-09 (KH)

[11] E3/10622, at 01170590 (EN), 01136712-13 (KH), no French available.

[12] E3/9835, at 00982718 (EN), 00975770 (KH), 00980804 (FR).

[13] E3/135, 00142912 (EN), 00487736 (FR).

[14] E3/10622, at 01170590 (EN), 001136712-13 (KH) and E3/9513, 00982700-01, 009975698 (KH), 00980789-90 (FR).

[15] E3/10622, at 01170597-98 (EN), 01136725-26 (KH), no French translation available.

[16] E3/10622, at 01170592 (EN), 01136715-16 (KH), no French translation available.

[17] At 00182809 (EN), 0000058 (KH), 00224363 (FR).

[18] E424

[19] E414

[20] E3/9814, at 00982728 (EN), 00975783-84 (KH), 00980813 (FR).

[21] E3/9814, at 00982728 (EN), 00975783 (KH), 00980813 (FR).

 

Featured Image: Witness 2-TCW-1005 (ECCC: Flickr).