Former District and Sector Deputy Chief Testifies about Forced Marriage

Today, Civil Party Seng Soeun was heard. He testified about instructions to arrange marriages in his district. Under questioning of the Co-Prosecution he talked about the execution of the Vietnamese and Chinese minority.

 

Role of the Civil Party

All parties were present. Judge Ya Sokhan informed the Chamber and the public that Trial Chamber President Nil Nonn was absent due to health reasons and it was uncertain when he would be back. Civil Party 2-TCCP-219 was heard today and Civil Party 2-TCCP-286 was on the reserve. At the beginning of the session, submissions regarding a closed session when witness 2-TCW-1002 would testify were heard. witness

 

N No party had objections. Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel Anta Guissé argued, however, that it should be as transparent as possible and that the witness had a counsel who could give advice on answering questions.

Before starting the Civil Party’s testimony, the Presiding Judge issued a ruling on the admission of documents.[1]

Civil Party Seng Soeun was born in 1956 in Trapeang Kok in Takeo District, Takeo Province. He clarified that his memory did not serve him well after “three days and three nights of unconsciousness”. The floor was granted to the Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyers to put questions to the Civil Party. Mr. Soeun joined the revolution in 1970 in Sector 13. His teacher Khieu Vanhorn instructed him about the group in October of that year. He first joined the arts performance group and joined the army in 1972. He was assigned a group chief in a company. After this, he became a candidate member of the Communist Party of Kampuchea. He was then assigned company chief. When Phnom Penh Fell, he was wounded. After the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia, he first went to Don Reik Mountain and then headed toward Kratie. Khieu and Ta Mok were in charge there. “Their aim was to get rid of the mistakes the previous Khmer Rouge leaders committed”. He continued his service until he retired. After he was handicapped, he was transferred to a handicapped soldier unit and worked in an administrative section. He could not recall the location of this office, but knew that it was in Sector 13 (Takeo Province). It was based near Ta Khmao. International Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyer Marie Guiraud read an excerpt in which he had said that he went to Ton Moun in Takeo.[2] He confirmed that he went there. He was assigned the deputy chief of the Youth Handicapped Office in Sector 13.[3] The people who were sent there had been wounded during the fighting with Lon Nol soldiers. “They were wounded by the bullets from the fighting”. He explained that those were considered handicapped who had lost an arm or a leg, or whose vision was harmed. Those who had family brought their family members along to live in his office.

Ms. Guiraud gave the floor to National Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyer Pich Ang to read out an excerpt of the Civil Party’s interview.[4] He said that at that time he was already at Sa’ang District and just visited the area. The chief of the district told him at the time that the handicapped persons were married to women. There were orders to arrange marriages. The age range of the handicapped soldiers who were arranged to get married were between 25 and more than 30 years old. He did not have time to ask them about their names. He did not all women who were married. “I was only familiar with their face”. “Those wives were villagers who were collected from villages to stay with their husbands”.

He could not remember how long he stayed in Sa’ang District. He stayed in Kratie for almost one month before the Vietnamese entered the country. Ms. Guiraud inquired whether his indication in his interview that he arrived in Sa’ang District in June 1978 was correct.[5] He replied that he could not remember.

 

Forced Marriage

He received the order from Brother Sao Phon, who was on the district committee, to “take the biographies of youth, both males and females, […] so that both youths were arranged to be married”. He made such a list twice. At each time, there were twenty or thirty couples. The chief of the male and female units sent the biographies to him so that he could match them. “I simply followed the instruction from the district committee. It was not my own decision.”

“Those who were arranged to be married were not aware in advance that they were to be married”. The chief would call them to the wedding ceremony place. “I can confirm that those couples were not informed about the fact that they would be arranged to get married”. Ms. Guiraud read an excerpt of his interview, in which he had said that he received an instruction to match Base People with Base People and New People with New People.[6] He confirmed this. “I attended the true wedding ceremonies. I handed everything to the district committee, and I was sitting there when the announcement was made that this person would be matched with that person”. An announcement was made that “if they disliked one another, they should withdraw”. He saw a few couples who walked away. “Mainly the men left”. At the second wedding ceremony, more women walked out. “However, I did not know whether they faced other issues later on”. [7]

In his interview, he had told the investigators that some people would not dare to refuse, because they were afraid of being killed. “That prior statement of mine is correct.” He insisted: “If they loved one another, that’s fine. However, if someone protested, that person would disappear”. He did not know whether the people who walked away later disappeared. They were members of the mobile units that were far away from where he was based.

He was married, too. “I never thought of having a wife, because I was relocated [all the time]. […] Sao Phon told me that I should have a wife. I refused, but he assigned a woman, who was the chief of the district hospital”. He refused twice, but after the third time he accepted. The wife was the cousin of Sao Phon and Phon arranged the marriage. He did not meet his wife before. “Only when I came to the handicapped office, the lady walked into my office, and only on the day of the marriage.” She was from Dorng Village in Kampot Province. Phon arranged this marriage. He was married together with two other couples. Around three months after the marriage, Phon and the Civil Party were transferred to Kratie Province. They were told that the women would be transferred later. The Vietnamese troops arrived before he was reunited with his wife. “Phon organized another woman for me to re-marry, and I never received any information from my previous wife. […]. I asked Phon about her and he said that she went to live with Muth in the area of Pailin.

“It is a very difficult situation during the regime. Sometimes people died or disappeared without any reason”. If they were instructed to marry, they “simply did”. At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break. Phon

 

Deputy Chief

After returning from the Takeo District Hospital following his injury at the battlefield, he was sent to an office. The person in charge of this office was called Yao. The office that he was based at consisted of three companies. These three companies were considered one battalion. Mr. Lysak wanted to know whether the number of about 400 disabled soldiers were correct. He replied that he did not remember it well.

Those who were already married accounted to around ten percent, so most of the people who got married were still single until then. Before he arrived, chiefs and deputy chiefs were already present. The chief of the company were arrested. A man was put in charge of the Handicap Office. Two months later, the deputy chief of the Zone announced the promotion of Mr. Soeun to the deputy chief of the office. He could not recall the date or name. This person was also in charge of a factory and was transferred to be the deputy chief of the Southwest Zone.

Mr. Lysak quoted his interview, in which he had talked about being transferred to Sa’ang District.[8] He replied that he did not understand the question. He could not recall the number of people in the district. “They gave me the 100-person list”. However, he could not recall the total number. Mr. Lysak asked whether he was sure that the marriages too place after he had been transferred to Sa’ang District or whether they took place while he was still at the Handicapped Office. He answered that it happened after he had left. “There was a policy from Ta Mok to bring in women to the office to marry handicapped soldiers”.

He did not see “anything happen” when he was in the office. “I saw them living together. And one of the handicapped soldiers was one of my nephews”. As for this case, he “did not notice any strange things happen there”. His cousin was also arranged to marry by Phon. Neither his cousin nor the women knew about their marriage beforehand. They knew about their marriage on the day of the wedding.

Mr. Lysak asked whether he ever heard soldiers being sent from the salt fields in Kampot to the Northwest Zone to marry soldiers, which he denied.

Mr. Lysak wanted to know who decided who would marry whom: was it the district committee? He replied that the district committee would make the announcement, but the matching itself was made by the Civil Party. Mr. Lysak then wanted to know who presided over the weddings. He replied that Phon organized them, and all commune chiefs were present. The ceremonies were held at the district office, which was a former school. [9]

Mr. Lysak asked about a policy by the regime to marry. He had told the investigators that this was the policy of the regime.[10] Mr. Lysak inquired what the reason was for marrying women at a younger age than men. He explained that this was the plan, as conveyed to him in meetings. The chief did not tell him the reasons for this age.

 

Fate of the Vietnamese and Chinese

Turning to another topic, Mr. Lysak inquired about the fate of Vietnamese people. Mr. Soeun replied that he “came across an issue” when he arrived in Sa’ang. “The order was to gather the yuon and the Chinese to be killed at a location called Koh Kor. And I not only heard people speaking about it, but I witnessed the execution site myself”. He first was not permitted entry, but told the person responsible that he was the district office chief and therefore witnessed the executions. “Of course I had the list of the people to be executed”.

On this island, 17 April People, Vietnamese and Chinese were executed. “And maybe the Cham were the next target”. This happened before he married his wife, but he did not know when exactly. He received the list of people to be executed, but did not know about their “future plan”. The name list from each commune were kept at the district office were Mr. Soeun worked. Each commune was responsible to gather the people on the list. These people were taken to Koh Kor on a boat.

The district committee member Phon knew about it. Mr. Soeun took a messenger with him. He saw people at Koh Kor who were not yet executed, including a former commune chief. Some men had been killed, and later women were killed as well. “After that, I got off the island”. When he went to Koh Kor without letting the district committee know, “I was there when the yuon and Chinese were cleansed”. They executed a people of ten people when he was there. “Those people were blindfolded and one by one they were killed”. He was fearful that his “turn would be next”, so he left the island.

 

They received instructions during study sessions that lasted several days. Some lasted a week. He did not know how many Vietnamese were killed. They were gathered from all communes in Sa’ang District. At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.

Mr. Lysak then inquired about meetings and reports. He had said that they monthly reported about enemy situations, for example.[11] Mr. Lysak read a document that indicated that the executions of Vietnamese took place in July 1978 in Sa’ang District.

[missing part]

 

Mr. Lysak asked whether he himself saw the district chief report to the sector, which the Civil Party denied. Mr. Lysak said that a Zone report indicated the number of marriages in a chart.[12] He did not know.

 

Former Lon Nol Officials

Those who were former soldiers and officials, such as soldiers and policemen, “would not be spared”. He received this instruction during the study sessions. He took notes on what was instructed to them during the study sessions. “I spoke here based on my knowledge and experience on joining those sessions and movement”.

Four of them were sent by Phon to Kratie. Muth was promoted to be the deputy secretary of the Zone. Pheap came from the navy. The Civil Party was in promoted to be in charge of the Sector Office.

He heard that people were arrested, because they were allegedly part of a traitorous network. “For us, we simply followed the assignment of Meas Muth”. They were called to a meeting, during which Meas Muth, the Deputy Secretary of the Zone, and Pheap, the Secretary of the Zone, presided over the ceremony. District secretaries had been arrested. He was told that he would be in charge of Sambol District, but Mr. Soeun refused. He was then put in charge of the Sector Office instead. Mr. Lysak referred to his statement, in which he had said that there was a letter appointing him to that position.[13] Mr. Soeun denied that there had been a letter. Asked for qualification, he explained that it was not an appointment letter, but their biographies. They went there by plane and gave the documents to Meas Muth.

 

At this point, Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel Anta Guissé objected and said that she had the “impression that we are witnessing a trial of a person who is not present today”. Mr. Lysak replied that he did “not understand this position at all”, since these questions related to the purges.

The Civil Party recounted that it was his personal conclusion that the instructions came from Pol Pot. He said that Kratie seemed to be an autonomous sector. Meas Muth instructed him to gather forces.

Mr. Lysak wanted to know what happened to the district secretaries of Kratie District and Snuol District. He replied that upon his arrival to his knowledge two district committees were spared. “They were arrested and put on a plane heading for Phnom Penh.”

Mr. Lysak pointed to an S-21 Prisoners List.[14] He confirmed that Cheng was Kratie District Secretary and Chhin, alias Phorn, was another Snuol District Secretary.  His brother was the Civil Party’s teacher in the 1970s. Thus, he got to know Phorn. Cheng came from Division 102. Chhin alias Phorn was a messenger, but he had separated from him in around 1971. National colleague Seng Leang read a list of names from the S-21 Prisoners List.[15] “None of the names ring a bell to me”, the Civil Party replied.[16] Meas Muth told him that the matter was “already solved” regarding Mao Oeung. Meas Muth had ordered his messenger to kill Mao Oeung. He had some friends who were chiefs of platoons. He had asked them where Brother Khieu (Son Sen) was sent to, and they told him that he was sent east. Mr. Lysak read an excerpt of the Civil Party’s DC-Cam statement, in which he had said that the interpretation whether someone who broke a spoon was considered an enemy was up to the local cadres.[17] The witness answered that the local cadres “did the killing. And the upper echelons were not aware of such matters”.[18] Mr. Lysak read an excerpt of Nuon Chea’s testimony. He had said that there were “bad elements” who destroyed pots and cutlery.[19] Mr. Lysak indicated more sources that seemed to indicate that people who broke spoons were enemies.[20] When he asked whether it was possible to have been mistaken when saying that this was up to the local cadres, Mr. Koppe objected and said that that there were many examples to the contrary. The objection was overruled. The Civil Party said that the breaking of spoons and plates was “not the focus of affair” of the government. Instead, this was taken care of by the village chiefs.

He said that he did not receive the assignment to look out for enemies. “I just looked out for my own safety”.

At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.

 

Wounded at the battlefield

Judge Jean-Marc Lavergne had two questions for the Civil Party. First, he wanted to know under which circumstances Mr. Soeun was wounded. He recounted that was wounded on the battlefield. “I was a soldier based at Kratie Province”. His responsibility was to defend the territory at the time. After 17 April 1975, the “yuon from Southern Vietnam” fought against them.

He was wounded three times when fighting against soldiers. First, he sustained a moderate wound when fighting against the Khieu Ty soldiers. The second injury was also moderate, but the third one was more severe: he broke a leg and could not walk anymore. He did not know the people in Kratie, because he was there for less of one month – thus, he did not necessarily know who were Cham. He never met any ethnic Cham, also not in other sectors. He never heard about a policy on what to do with ethnic Cham.

 

Questions by the Nuon Chea Defense Team

The Nuon Chea Defense Team was given the floor. National Defense Counsel started examining the Civil Party by asking about marriages. He wanted to know whether he ever saw youths made a proposal to marry. He said that there was a couple or two who proposed to marry. They begged Phon to get married.

When a person was arrested, they would disappear and never return. Thus, he was afraid for his own safety and did therefore not study the Revolutionary Principles. Mr. Sovanna read an excerpt of a Revolutionary Flag that talked about moral principles.[21] Mr. Soeun said that he had read this, but that the “situation was very strict”. When people fell in love secretly and they would be found out, they would be killed. Biographies from the male and female mobile units were gathered and sent to the district committee. Mr. Soeun himself did the matching. Mr. Sovanna read an excerpt of his interview.[22] He said that he could not remember having made this statement, but that women and men could walk away if they disliked each other. “However, I did not know what happened to [them]”.

Mr. Sovanna said that he had said in his statement that it “was not forced marriage”, but that weddings were made based on “the sector’s plan”. He replied that he did not know where they came from, and thought that they did not know each other before. However, “it is difficult to say that they were forced” and that he could not say with certainty whether they were forced. “After they got married, the newlywed couples should return to their respective communes”. They were taken there by their commune chiefs. He did not know how these couples felt and whether they wanted to get married in general. Mobile units were established as well as cooperatives. Married couples would live in cooperatives and unmarried ones lived in the mobile units. They usually engaged in work on the rice fields.

His own wife was called Chhorn alias Ron (from Dorng Village) and was the cousin of Sao Phon. Her father was called Noy. He was not allowed to visit her parents. She had her own house. “She occupied one room of those houses”, he said. From the time that he got married until he was transferred to Kratie was a little bit more than two months, but less than three. He did not have any communication with his wife when he was in Kratie. His wife told him that she was two-months pregnant before he went to Kratie. “We did not speak about love or affection at all”, he answered when Mr. Sovanna asked him whether his wife liked him. He was asked to marry her several times, and at some point he said yes. The woman who was transferring messages between him and Phon did not threaten him. Phon had said that “if I were to marry a girl from a textile factory he would not recognize her and that I should marry his younger cousin”.

He did not know whether her parents were alive.

With this, Mr. Sovanna concluded his line of questioning and gave the floor to his international colleague.[23] Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether he would agree with him that if a couple was forced to marry that this would be a violation of the 6^th Moral Principle. At this point, International Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyer Marie Guiraud objected and said that the Civil Party had already said that he was not familiar with the 12 Moral Principles. National Defense Counsel for Khieu Samphan Kong Sam Onn interjected and said that the Civil Party had simply said that he had studied them but did not remember all of them. Mr. Koppe replied that the Civil Party “as a lower cadre” should be allowed to answer that question. Presiding Judge Ya Sokhan instructed the Civil Party to rephrase the question. Mr. Koppe asked whether Mr. Soeun ever discussed the matter of family life under Democratic Kampuchea. He replied that he was “busy with fighting”. When he was handicapped, he saw people being matched up for marriage. “But I did not know much about the depth of it, because I was at Sa’ang District”. Mr. Koppe inquired whether he had ever been accused of having violated that principle. Mr. Soeun answered that he did not understand and did not know.

Mr. Koppe asked him why he filed a Civil Party application, since “that generally means that you consider yourself victim of the events of Democratic Kampuchea”. Mr. Koppe said that he had given evidence that he might have drawn up lists of Vietnamese people who might have been executed afterwards. Ms. Guiraud interjected and said that the status of the Civil Party had been recognized by the Office of the Co-Investigating Judges. His witnessing of other facts did not have an impact on the Civil Party’s application. Mr. Koppe said that his question was legitimate. He answered that three of his in-laws served in the North Zone. After 17 April, one was a medic, one held a position in a battalion, and another one of a warehouse. “All of them were killed by the regime. […] That was the reason I filed my Civil Party Application”.  They were arrested and accused of being part of a traitorous network. Mr. Koppe asked whether they were accused of being affiliated with Koy Thuon or Tuch. He replied that they were located far away from him, which was why he did not know. Mr. Koppe referred to a document that indicated that Mr. Soeun had drawn a connection between his brothers-in-law and Koy Thuon.[24] He answered that he “received the news” from a person who was in the same unit as his in-law. At that time, his father-in-law was still alive. Later, they received the news that “they all died”. He said that he and his “whole family” never knew Koy Thuon.

Mr. Koppe asked about Vietnam. He replied that he did not know “much about the affairs of the country”. He only knew that they were “fighting against the yuon”. He confirmed having said that the yuon wanted to take the territory of three countries, since this is what he heard in meetings.[25]

Mr. Koppe asked whether he had heard of support for Vietnamese troops in Cambodia.

He replied that there was no assistance from the outside and that these were only instructions from Pol Pot. Asked again, he said that he did not know much about this matter and that he had only heard about it.[26]

 

Mr. Koppe said that he had said in his statement that this happened in mid-1978 and asked whether he knew that there was a war going on between Vietnam and Democratic Kampuchea. He replied that he knew that the Khmer and yuon were “fighting constantly, because they were not happy”. He never investigated whether people concealed rice or other things for the Vietnamese troops. Mr. Koppe confronted him with his statement. He had said: “I went down to investigate. It was true”. He said that he thought that he never said so. He was based in Kandal Province, while what Mr. Koppe had raised, he said, was based in the border region. He said that he did not know about the matter.

 

The President adjourned the hearing. It will continue tomorrow at 9 am with the testimony of Civil Party Seng Soeun and Civil Party 2-TCCP-286.

 

[1] E430.

[2] E3/409, at answer 6.

[3] E3/409, at answer 11.

[4] E3/5643, at 00756626 (FR), 00753878 (EN), 00059380 (KH).

[5] E3/409, at answer 24.

[6] E3/409, at answer 65.

[7] E3/409, at answers 71-73.

[8] E3/5643, at 00059402 (KH), 00753896 (EN), 00756647 (FR).

[9] E3/5643, at 00059381 (KH), 00753879 (EN), 00756626 (FR).

[10] E3/409, at answer 67.

[11] E3/1094; E3/409, at answer 49; 00143610 (KH), 00315374 (EN), 00593530 (FR).

[12] E3/1094, last page.

[13] E3/409, at answers 26-27.

[14] E3/1651, at 00086832 (KH), 00789507 (EN), 00841431 (FR).

[15] E3/1651, at 00086833 (KH), 00789508 (EN), 00841432 (FR).

[16] E3/409, at answer 36.

[17] E3/5643, at 00059360-61 (KH), 00753864 (EN), 00756607-08 (FR).

[18] E3/746, at 00064495 (KH), 00428297 (EN), 00611878 (FR).

[19] E1/201.1, at 10.25.

[20] E1/206.1, at 14:11.

[21] E3/765, at 00376493-94 (KH), 00539994 (EN), 00540024-25 (FR).

[22] E3/409, at answer 74.

[23] E3/409.

[24] D22/3605/1, at 00567556 (EN), 00758000 (FR).

[25] E3/5643, at 00753835 (EN), 00059327 (KH) ; 00753825 (EN), 0059318 (KH), 00756668 (FR).

[26] At 00753854 (EN).

Featured Image: Civil Party Seng Soeun (ECCC: Flickr).