Day Two: Testimony of Ruos Nhim’s Messenger

by Leonie Kijewski, LLM, Maastricht University
— 22 Sep, 2016

Today was a short day at the Trial Chamber with the hearing being adjourned at 11.30 am. In the first morning sessions, anonymous witness 2-TCW-1036 concluded his testimony and gave more detail about his trip to Phnom Den, where he and other messengers of Ruos Nhim collected uniforms. The court was then adjourned, since a DC-Cam interview of scheduled Civil Party 2-TCCP-1064 had been discovered and needed to be translated before her testimony could begin.

Anonymous Witness 2-TCW-1036

At the beginning of the session, presiding judge Ya Sokhan issued the decision to call 2-TCW-1065 after October 13 for two days.

The testimony of yesterday’s anonymous witness then continued. Asked about the collecting of uniforms at Phnom Den, he said that he arrived at night time in Phnom Den after leaving from Battambang. There were two vehicles. One of them was a big truck. The other vehicle was a jeep. He said it was likely that they went through Phnom Penh, but that he was not sure, since it was night time. He did not know whether her supervisor received a travel permit. He did not get off the vehicle. Nor did he know what happened to the Lon Nol soldiers at the barracks that he had been spying on.[1] He pointed to a telegram to “Respected Angkar”.[2] Mr. Lysak asked about three people called Horm (also transcribed as Ham).[3] He said he did not know his position. Nuon Chea Defense Counsel Victor Koppe interjected and said that his version of the document said “Sorm” and not “Horm”.

Mr. Lysak pointed to a record of prisoners at S-21, which indicate that Py, alias Horm was the chief of Northwest Zone Economics. The witness said he did not know. Mr. Lysak pointed to another telegram of 1978 to Angkar 870, written less than a month of Nhim’s arrest, in which he said that he was advised to take a rest at a hospital because of an illness. The witness denied knowing more about this. With this, the Senior Assistant Prosecutor concluded his line of questioning. The Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyers did not have any questions.

Judge Jean-Marc Lavergne asked whether he saw Vietnamese people close to his vehicle when he was in Phnom Den. He did not know where the uniforms came from. There were three people on the vehicle: Phy, Sorm, and him. He said they did not talk when the uniforms were brought in. He did not go to the Trapeang Thma Worksite. He saw some of the visitors who came to visit Ta Nhim, but he was assigned to “stay outside”. Since he was not close to Ta Nhim, he “did not know much”, he said. He had not heard about people trying to flee the country. He had heard of people suffering from hunger. Asked whether he had suffered from hunger, he said that they ate rice and porridge. The witness then said that people did not suffer hunger. Seemingly upset, Judge Lavergne said: “so as a matter of fact everything was perfect under Democratic Kampuchea?” Nuon Chea Defense Counsel Victor Koppe said that “I know it is difficult to hide his bias, but at least he can make an attempt”. The witness asked Judge Lavergne to repeat the question. Judge Lavergne asked whether there were any problems under Democratic Kampuchea and if yes, what these were. The witness replied: “There were no problems.” Judge Lavergne addressed Mr. Koppe and said that he did not have any questions anymore.

The floor was granted to the Khieu Samphan Defense Team. Anta Guissé asked whether it was correct that there was a messenger called Chruk, which the witness confirmed. He did not live in the same house as the other messengers. Ta Nhim was always in another vehicle than Ta Nhim, since the witness just provided security protection to him. Ta Nhim’s personal bodyguards travelled in the same car as their supervisor. When he went to Phnom Den, he was told that Ta Nhim was still there, but left quickly after. He did not see him board the vehicle.

There was a person who was called Khae.

He saw “some people” when he arrived in Phnom Den, but did not know them. “They came to get the vehicle to transport the material”. They departed when the material was put onto the vehicle. There were two other people on his vehicle. They were in a separate group of those who were close to Ta Nhim. The other two people in the vehicle also belonged to the second group of bodyguards. He confirmed that they followed another vehicle when they left. He could only recall the person called Phy. When Ms. Guissé announced that she would continue her questioning after a break, Mr. Lysak objected to this and said that the Khieu Samphan Defense Team had already used up their time. While he would usually not object to time issues, he pointed to a “lack of significance and importance” of the information the witness was providing.

They arrived at around 5 pm at Phnom Den. They were instructed by soldiers who were there to leave at night time. He left the vehicle at Ta Nhim’s house and “handed everything over” before leaving to his sleeping quarter. He drove the vehicle inside so it was “completely covered”. He was told that they had to “fully cover” this vehicle, since there were uniforms in there and that no one was supposed to see this. It was not explained to him why no one was supposed to see this vehicle. With this, Ms. Guissé concluded her line of questioning.

The floor was granted to national counsel Kong Sam Onn, who had four minutes to conclude the defense team’s questions. Mr. Sam Onn asked whether he did not “go along with others” when they arrived in Phnom Den. The witness denied this. They waited until 3 pm.

Judge Fenz announced that the Nuon Chea Defense Team had sent an e-mail just twenty ago requesting submissions. The submissions would be heard after the break.

At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.

Postponing 2-TCCP-1064

After the break, submissions were heard in relation to a request for submissions by the Nuon Chea Defense Team requesting that 2-TCCP-1064 should be heard after Pchum Ben. Doreen Chen explained for the Nuon Chea Defense Team that they had come across a 35-page DC-Cam statement by the Civil Party in question that was only available in Khmer at the moment that was directly relevant. Hence, they submitted, it would only make sense to hear the Civil Party after the Pchum Ben. The Khieu Samphan Defense Team endorsed the application and the Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyers did not have any objection. The Co-Prosecution equally supported the application. Judge Lavergne wanted to know why they were hearing about this in the last minute and were hearing it from Nuon Chea Defense Team and not the Civil Party lawyers. Pich Ang explained that they had just received it quite recently. Marie Guiraud put forward that the Civil Party was proposed by the Chamber proprio motu and that this happened last minute. When Judge Lavergne said that they should have still known about this interview, she replied “Welcome to our world, Judge Lavergne”.

Judge Fenz issued the decision a few minutes later. The Civil Party will be heard after the Pchum Ben recess and the court was adjourned until October 4, 2016.

[1] E3/4202, at 00858392 (KH), 00757552 (EN), 00849470 (FR).

[2] E3/1208.

[3] E3/9581, at answer 67.

Featured Image: Witness 2-TCW-1036 (ECCC: Flickr).

Cambodia Tribunal Monitor’s Trial Observer posts are written according to the personal observations and opinions of the writer and do not constitute a transcript of ECCC proceedings or the views of Cambodia Tribunal Monitor and/or its partners. Official court transcripts for the ECCC’s hearings may be accessed at the ECCC website.