Civil Party and Witness Testify On Leadership of CPK
Today, both testimonies of anonymous Civil Party 2-TCCP-223 and witness Tuch Sithan were heard and concluded. The Civil Party provided insight into the role of leaders of the Communist Party of Kampuchea. Ms. Tuch Sithan gave information regarding the distribution of medicine as well as the role of the accused.
Back to Civil Party 2-TCCP-223
The floor was handed to the Nuon Chea Defense Team. Counsel Victor Koppe inquired about the Civil Party’s statement that he was living in Phnom Penh with Nuon Chea in the early sixties. The Civil Party corrected that he worked and did not live with Nuon Chea. Mr. Koppe said that he had told the court yesterday that he lived with him in the sixties. Being born, he would have been very young. The Civil Party denied ever having lived with Nuon Chea. He learned from his mother that his mother lived and worked with Nuon Chea in the 1950s. She told him that Nuon Chea used to play with him when he was young.
Mr. Koppe presented a document to the Civil Party and asked whether this was her name (due to matters of confidentiality, the name could not be mentioned in public). He confirmed the name, but said that she passed away four or five months ago.[1]
He said that Tou Samouth was the Chairman of Communist Party of Kampuchea before he was murdered. The Civil Party’s grandfather Say worked for Tou Samouth, he said. One day, Tou Samouth disappeared. Mr. Koppe asked whether Nuon Chea said that Say was the “ring leader” after 1975.[2] He replied that Nuon Chea did not say that Say was a leader of traitors, but that he was a traitor. Nuon Chea said that Say was a messenger for Tou Samouth who provided information to outsiders, who then killed Tou Samouth. He did not know what mistakes Say had made. “He simply said that Say was a traitor.” He was at the Zone Office 560 when he was arrested. Mr. Koppe asked whether he was member of the Northwest Zone Committee together with Ruos Nhim, which the Civil Party confirmed. He also confirmed that Say was also known as Ta Phean.
He clarified that he did not personally work with Nuon Chea, but that his father did.
Leadership
Mr. Koppe then turned to a person called San. The Civil Party replied that San was arrested.[3] Mr. Koppe showed an organigram that showed cadres of the Northwest Zone, namely Nhieu, and Chhorn. He replied that he had heard of Nieuh and knew Chhorn. He knew Division One members Kaing, Kloy and Reang. He said that he knew Chhorn in 1974. He sent a telegram to him to receive information about the battlefield. He never met Chhorn after 1975. Mr. Koppe inquired how often he had contact with Division 3 Secretary Ren. He replied that Ren’s wife lived with him and that they had close work relations. Ren was stationed in Treng.
Mr. Koppe asked whether he knew who the chief of logistics within the Northwest Zone was. He replied that he did not know the person. He did not know about a plan to overthrow Pol Pot in 17 April, nor had he heard about it at about a later date.
Nor had he heard Nuon Chea speak about Sok. He said that Say was the only name that he could remember that was mentioned as having been a traitor.[4] It was mentioned, he said, that three classes would be smashed: those perceived as belonging to feudalism, capitalism and petty bourgeoisie. Those people who were engaged in the movement were later also executed, the Civil Party explained. Mr. Koppe referred to Teth Sambath’s book, who had mentioned a person called Chan Savuth.[5] He replied that this did not ring a bell. This prompted Mr. Koppe to read out an excerpt in which plans to destroy bridges, for example, were mentioned. The Civil Party denied knowledge about this. Mr. Koppe continued putting questions about an alleged coup d’état. At this point, International Senior Assistant Prosecutor Dale Lysak interjected and said that the questions were leading. Moreover, there was no evidence regarding an attempted coup d’état of 17 April 1977. Mr. Koppe gave sources for the latter.[6] The Civil Party was not aware of any weapons being stored.
Moving on, Mr. Koppe inquired why they had doubts that he was a traitor. He answered that those who took him away from Office 560 told him about it. “They said that I was a traitor against the revolution.” He said that the person worked in an office near a bridge. The Civil Party was taken to Phnom Penh by train.
Mr. Koppe said that Robert Lemkin had informed the chamber that Cheal Choeun was not the real name in the book (see discussion of October 17, 2016)[7]
Arrests of “Important Prisoners”
After the first break, Mr. Koppe said that a person called Thorn had talked about Phean alias Say.[8] The Civil Party replied that he had never heard of this name. A witness said that Ta Pheang alias Say was the chief of Sector 1 and a deputy secretary of state of the Ministry of Culture during the Samdech Sihanouk regime.[9] The Civil Party replied that he did not know about this. He had heard about the Prey Sar Prison, but did not know how it looked like. S-21 was known as Security Center 21. He knew Harm who was working at the logistics department. He did not know more about the relationship between Harm and Say. He did not know when S-21 was established. He learned about it after 1979.[10] He never heard of it while working at Office 560. The Civil Party said that those belonging to “feudalism, capitalism and petty bourgeoisie could not avoid the execution. I mean those who were well-educated. Only those who were never educated were kept.”
He did not know other people’s names except one person who visited Phnom Penh. The Chinese delegations that went to Battambang were not known to him. He did not know whether a high-ranking Chinese official visited Trapeang Thma together with Ruos Nhim.
Treng was located on Road 10 from Battambang. It was located around 30 or 40 kilometers away from the provincial town. It was used as a military base. In the past, he said, there was no market. The headquarters were not far from where the market is currently located. Sdao was not far from there either. He did not know which division Ren was part of. Neither did he know which unit was stationed at Sdao. With this, Mr. Koppe concluded his line of questioning and the floor was handed to the Khieu Samphan Defense Team.
Receiving Guests
Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel Anta Guissé asked how he knew that his father knew the people he had mentioned earlier. He answered that his father knew Hou Yuon, Hi Nhim, Khieu Samphan and others, because they were “on the list of names” and he lived in Phnom Penh. They brought books with them for him to print so that children could have materials and books for their education. Ms. Guissé referred to his interview, in which he had said that he was a messenger and received guests and that he knew Hu Nhim and Khieu Samphan prior to 1975 due to his father.[11] He replied that he worked in the forest from 1970 until 1975. His uncle and his father worked together. They guarded a place, cleaned it and lived there. Moreover, they served guests at this place. They were his in-laws and elder siblings.
Relatives
Doeun replaced Say. When the Civil Party was transferred, Doeun was also transferred. He learned from “the documents I read” that there was a policy to achieve certain work quotas, but that he said that it could not be achieved in reality. “The reports were deceitful”, he said. People who could not achieve the work quota would disappear. The messages were conveyed through criticism and self-criticism meetings. He could not make the distinction between the Central Committee and the Standing Committee. To his knowledge, Office 870 was the office of the party center. He became aware of his father’s arrest when he met his nephew Sarong, who told him about the matter. There was no contact between him and his relatives during the Khmer Rouge regime, so he knew about this after the regime.
When Nuon Chea brought them to Phnom Penh, he told them that they were brought to Phnom Penh “in order to get out of being persecuted by those traitorous groups.” There were around 500 to 600 people in his group. He did not know which military division or battalion they came from. They were divided into separate groups and he was sent to Ta Kao Pagoda. Some people from his group disappeared.
Meeting with Ieng Tirith
Turning to her last subject, Ms. Guissé referred to the meeting with Ieng Tirith that he had mentioned yesterday. He recounted that she held a meeting for many people at the Council of Ministers in December 1978. At the time, he was a construction worker at a medicine production center located close to the present office of the Council of Ministers. They talked about the evacuation from Phnom Penh. Those who were sick would be sent by train to Battambang Province. With this, Ms. Guissé concluded her line of questioning.
Civil Party Impact Statement
The Civil Party was then given the opportunity to make a Civil Party Impact Statement and put questions to the witness.
I have one question to put to [Nuon Chea]. […] Regarding the killing and mistreatment of seven million people, although the 3 to 1.5 million, what is your responsibility for that? Or do you think that foreigners should take responsibility for that?
Everything is beyond words. I do not know how to describe in words of my hardship. It’s beyond imagination. I cannot take it, I cannot accept it. I lived in a very difficult situation. I was separated from my parents, siblings and relatives and I have nowhere to live. At this point in time, I have nothing. I don’t receive any education. I don’t have any plot of land so that I could live and survive. I have never told anyone about what is inside my heart. I do not have anything else to add to what I have spoken of, since nothing can be described in words. At present, I live in a status which is lower than animals, and that’s a result of what happened during the regime. I am thankful that I am allowed to make these statements on harm and suffering.
The president informed the Civil Party that the accused exercised their right to remain silent.
Back to the Testimony of Tuch Sithan
After the break, the chamber turned to Ms. Tuch Sithan’s testimony that was heard via audiovisual link from France. She said that she had met her husband in 1978. She was required to work in a medical section. Two or three months later, her husband was taken away. She filled out forms that would be received by another person. Mr. de Wilde read a quote of her interview, in which she had talked about a meeting at the Ministry of Commerce. She replied that her brother did not receive any political assignments.[12] Her brother never discussed political relations that her brother might have with Khieu Samphan. They tried to remove her older brother, which was why he was sent abroad. She was given documents to read, but it was “incomprehensible.” She was told not to ask any questions relating to her husband, but she was told that her husband may have died. She asked about the accusations against her husband and whether there was any evidence, but she was warned and told that she did not trust Angkar. Mr. de Wilde showed a confession.[13] She said that she did not know who else disappeared. Mr. de Wilde asked whether she knew if the dentist Dis Phuon also disappeared, which she confirmed. He said that the dentist’s and his wife’s name appeared on a prisoners’ list of people who were arrested on December 10, 1978.[14] She was transferred to a medicine section later. Mr. de Wilde asked whether he knew two other couples. She replied that she knew Bong Hor and Bong Ha, but she no longer had any contact with the people at the hospital when she was transferred. The president informed the International Senior Assistant Prosecutor that he had run out of time and handed the floor to the Nuon Chea Defense Team.
Mr. Koppe asked whether she recalled the person Chhoeun Choun who she had mentioned in her interview.[15] She replied that this person was part of the hospital. In 1970, she was still a student and not engaged in the medical section. She only later got to know Chhoeun Chhoun’s brother. Mr. Koppe said that one of the brothers was called Chhoeun Mum and asked whether she knew him between 1970 and 1979. She replied that she had not met that person between 1970 and 1975, and only met the person when she went to France. By now, he was “at a very advanced age” by now. Turning to his last question regarding this topic, Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether she knew whether Chhoeun Samrit was still alive, which she confirmed.
Distributing Medicine
Mr. Koppe then presented a document to the witness, which showed a list of names.[16] The document was not clear on the screen, so the witness could not read it. Mr. Koppe said that it listed a large quantity of medicine. She did not know anything about wounded people.
She said she was not involved in purchasing the medicine, as she was only tasked with distributing the medicine to the people.[17] Mr. Koppe asked whether she was involved in the distribution of Chinese medicine over the various zones. She replied that she was involved in distributing both old and new medicine, but that she did not have any contact with the Ministry of Commerce or Chinese group. She replied that she received instructions from Bong Su and would then distribute them to the different areas. It was beyond her knowledge whether packages actually arrived, as she did not go to the provinces. People came to pick up the medicine, which was why she did not know any details about the distribution.[18] Mr. Koppe asked whether she was involved in the living conditions and health of Cambodian people, which she denied. “I was not a party member and I did not hold any major position in the Ministry of Social Affairs.”
During the regime, people who were party members had more knowledge than those who were not. Thus, she did not know what was discussed in meetings that were held for party members.
Mr. Koppe referred to minutes of a meeting on health and social affairs that was attended by Nuon Chea, Ieng Tirith, other high ranking cadres, and her superior Sou.[19] Mr. Koppe said that blood donations were discussed that should serve to save combatants. He asked whether she knew about such a policy, to which she replied that she did not understand what he meant with “blood donation”. She said that she was not aware of this matter.
The floor was handed to the Khieu Samphan Defense Team. Counsel Anta Guissé asked whether it was correct that she did not have any contact with her former colleagues at the hospital when she left it, which Ms. Sithan confirmed. Her new assignment was not very far from the hospital, but located around half an hour on a bicycle along Kampuchea Krom Boulevard. There was a meeting that was attended by hospital staff. They would not talk to each other, however.
Sou met and advised her to purchase medicine. One week later, that person came to collect the purchased order. After her husband was sent away she “had nothing to do”, but they needed someone to replace her husband. People were from different sections and she did not know how many people from her unit with her. She did not want to go to purchase medicine, as her husband had been taken away. “I was not really interested at all at the time.” She was placed in a far distance from other people.
Ms. Guissé referred to her interview in which she had said that she saw Khieu Samphan and submitted their projects to them.[20] The witness said that the person was in charge of purchasing medicine from abroad. There was a Ministry of Commerce that was adjacent to the Ministry of Social Affairs.
At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.
Ministries
After the break, Ms. Guissé inquired about the ministries. She replied that there was no label indicating that it was the Ministry of Commerce of Ministry of Social Affairs, for example. The meeting was not held at the adjacent commerce but elsewhere. The Ministry of Commerce was on the opposite side of the road. She met Khieu Samphan neither at the Ministry of Social Affairs nor at the Ministry of Commerce. Ms. Guissé asked whether she knew of a laboratory, which the witness did. The natural medicine was produced in Cambodia according to the policy to rely on traditional herbal medicine, which was why there was no need to receive medicine from overseas. She did not distribute traditional Khmer medicine. Instead, they gathered medicine that was left and distributed it. She was no longer trusted after her husband was arrested and reassigned. She worked alone at Chamkar Leu.
Under questioning of Judge Claudia Fenz, who had interjected, the witness said that she had received medicine from China.
Marriage
She said that Bong Sou organized her marriage. The wife of Bong Sou’s deputy told her about the arranged marriage. Angkar meant “the person who had higher responsibility” and “the person who made the decision in place of our parents.” Angkar had, she explained, “senior responsibility.”[21] She herself was “never referred to as Angkar,” as she did not have the authority to make decisions. They were divided into two groups: party members and non-members. She denied being in charge of politics.
Turning to her next topic, Ms. Guissé asked whether she was made aware of any attempted coup d’états against the Democratic Kampuchea government. She replied that she was not aware of any attempts to murder a leader.[22]
She brought a box to Phea, who asked her to keep it. There were “small broken things” in the box, and she threw the box away without disclosing the information to anyone. She said that she learned later that “thing happened.” She learned that there was an internal conflict. She heard that a person and Ieng Tirith did not get along well. In the box, there were “small parts.” She heard that Ieng Tirith “got angry” with some people. She was told by others in France that Ieng Tirith “did not get along well with Son Sen’s group.” Moreover, “she was always angry with Son Sen’s wife.” She did not know at the time whether Ieng Tirith was angry at her, because Khieu Samphan came to see Ms. Sithan instead of going through Ieng Tirith.
She was instructed to buy material “from abroad”, but did not have her documents ready for Phea. She was told that Meang “got so furious” with her and was told that Phea was “not happy” because Khieu Samphan went to see her directly. “Perhaps that was her nature.”
Ms. Guissé asked whether she had heard of an attempt to someone during a visit of a Laotian delegation, which the witness denied. Ms. Guissé said that Elizabeth Becker had interviewed Ieng Tirith, who had spoken about this incident.[23] She replied that she was not aware of such an incident. With this, Ms. Sithan’s testimony came to an end. The president thanked and dismissed her.
As the appeal judgment of Case 002/01 will be heard tomorrow, the Trial Chamber will not be sitting this week. Hearings will resume on Monday 28, 2016 with the testimony of witness 2-TCW-876 and reserve witness 2-TCW-953 in relation to role of the accused.
[1] E3/9477, at 01112105 (FR),
[2] E3/9477.
[3] At 00602544 (EN), 005448895 (FR), 00443016 (KH).
[4] E3/6636a, at 00859258 (EN), 00579466 (KH).
[5] E3/4202, at 00757532 (EN), 00858342 (KH), 00849437 (FR).
[6] E3/7333, at 01002239 (EN); E3/1593, at 01150177 (EN), 00637879-80 (KH), 00639118 (FR); E3/1358, at 00168287 (EN).
[7] E29/489/1.
[8] E3/10604, at 01222640 (EN), Nr. 7,765.
[9] E3/9610, at answer 16.
[10] E3/9477, at answer 46.
[11] E3/5000, at 00807148 (FR), 00558233 (KH), 00793363 (EN).
[12] E3/378, at 00349544-45 (KH), 00342205 (FR), 00345543 (EN).
[13] E3/2837.
[14] E3/2088, at 00040092 (KH), no French translation available.
[15] E3/5305.
[16] E3/2941, at 00583816 (EN), 00381949 (KH), 00769978 (FR).
[17] At 00233531 (EN), 00072602 (KH).
[18] E3/659, at 00182325 (EN), 00743050 (FR), 00741121 (KH).
[19] E3/226.
[20] E3/378, at 00342205 (FR), 00345543 (EN), 00349545 (KH).
[21] E3/378 at 00342205 (FR), 00345543 (EN), 00349546 (KH).
[22] E3/378, at 00342203 (FR), 00349540 (KH), 00345541 (EN).
[23] E3/659.
Featured Image: Witness Tuch Sithan testifies via audiovisual link (ECCC: Flickr).