Khieu Samphan and Evacuees from the East
Civil Party Kheav Neab concluded her testimony today. She gave more details on her encounter with Khieu Samphan and the disappearance of her husband and family members. An anonymous Civil Party testified in the afternoon. He provided information about the evacuation of people in the East Zone to Phnom Penh and Battambang and a speech that was given by Khieu Samphan.
Disappearance of Family Members
Ms. Kheav Neab continued her testimony today. Civil Party 2-TCCP-1063 was on the reserve. Judge You Ottara was absent due to personal matters and was replaced by Judge Tou Mony. The floor was then handed to the Co-Prosecutors to put questions to the Civil Party Kheav Neab. Senior Assistant Prosecutor Vincent de Wilde wanted to know whether any of her family members were officers or soldiers of the Lon Nol government. She replied that she had an uncle who came to Kampong Chhnang Province and disappeared since. The family members of her husband’s side did not become soldiers for the Lon Nol government. Her uncle was called Chhoun Chhoeun. He disappeared after 1975. She received this information from someone who lived in the same native village. That person told her that there had been an appeal to former soldiers to identify themselves. Her uncle did so and disappeared. “My uncle fell into the trick.” Another person called Ro did not identify himself and did not disappear. It was later found out that he was a former Lon Nol official, after which he also disappeared.
In 1978, her husband brought her to join the celebration of New Year. From that time onwards she was assigned as a cook. The market where she worked was known as Ministry 870. Mr. de Wilde asked whether her husband changed status at some point.[1] Her husband was a simple worker to store rice at the warehouse when he was stationed at the market. He did not become a cadre.
Khieu Samphan
She saw Khieu Samphan once. Her husband had told her that “he was Angkar” and that he was “Ta Khieu Samphan.” He handed blue-white kramas to the people at the market. They were evacuees from the east. At this point, Anta Guissé objected, explaining that this fell out of the scope of the trial. Mr. de Wilde said that it concerned the role of Khieu Samphan and the definition of enemies. The role of the accused was relevant even if the acts themselves were outside the scope. Nuon Chea Defense Counsel supported her objection. The objection was overruled, as long as the Third Population Movement Phase was not asked about. The Civil Party said that she saw him distribute the krama to one elderly woman. However, there were many people there. Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel Kong Sam Onn said that the question was repetitious, since she had said several times that she gave one krama to one person. She was aware that they were from the East Zone and that they were sent to the Northwest Zone, because she witnessed the event with her own eyes.[2] Her group had asked them where they came from, and they told them that they were from Prey Veng. At this point, Ms. Guissé objected again.
They’re talking about facts in regards which we cannot defend our client.
Trial Chamber President Nil Nonn said that the questions should focus on the role of the accused. Other facts were supplementary only. He said they should “avoid wasting time.” Mr. de Wilde referred the chamber to several Written Record of Interview, in which the fate of people who wore blue scarves was mentioned.[3] He then moved on.
Disappearance of her husband
Her husband was taken away with a person called Run. Mr. de Wilde said that the date that was indicated was October 1978.[4] She only found out about the details of his arrest when she saw the document. Ret, who lived in Siem Reap, told her that her husband was either imprisoned at Prey Sar or S-21. Her husband, Ye and Run were arrested. She did not see their arrest, as she was in the kitchen. When she came back and could not find her husband, her three year old son told her that her husband was taken away with Nhe and Run.
Run was not married yet. Ye was married to Nat. His wife was taken away at the same time as the Civil Party herself was taken to a pagoda. There were four or five women and one man (called Hom), who were in the same group. Some of the women who went along with her were accompanied by their husbands, while others were not. Mr. de Wilde asked whether the pagoda Wat Chey Oudom was under Office 870. Ms. Guissé objected and said that Civil Party had only referred to Ministry 870. Mr. de Wilde rephrased his question. The Civil Party replied that she did not know under which authority the pagoda lay.
Mr. de Wilde presented several documents to the Civil Party and asked whether she knew the person by the name Ang Ky Peng Ly that could be seen on the list, which Ms. Neab denied. He asked her about Kong Choy, alias Choeun, and Thulk. She said that she could say that one of the persons’ on the list was her husband. Run was her husband’s friend. Mr. de Wilde pointed to a list of people who were interrogated at S-21 and named in particular So Sour, alias Vuy.[5] She did not know when he disappeared. “He simply disappeared.” She did not know who took over the supply office afterwards. Mr. de Wilde asked about San Ryt Sous, alias Sao, who was 28 years old at the time. She said that she was not familiar with the name. She did not know who took charge when she left.
Mr. de Wilde asked whether people from her unit or her husband’s unit disappeared between April 1975 and the time that she was brought to the pagoda. She replied that she was taken away in a car. With this, Mr. de Wilde concluded his line of questioning.
Before the break, there was a brief discussion about whether 2-TCW-1069 could be heard after the conclusion of 2-TCCP-1063, as two scheduled witnesses and Civil Parties were sick. Mr. Koppe agreed starting questioning the witness tomorrow afternoon.
Mr. de Wilde clarified that they would not be ready to put questions to the witness. Mr. Koppe said that they were not ready yet, either, but that he was “willing to sacrifice, and I think the Prosecution should be, too.” Ms. Guissé said that “we are not ready at all” and that it was “a bit tight” to start with the witness tomorrow.
At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.
Separation from her husband
The president announced that 2-TCW-1069 would be heard tomorrow. Mr. Koppe said that he had no questions for this Civil Party statement. However, the 88 page-long DC-Cam statement of 2-TCW-1070, who was closely related to 2-TCW-1069, was only available in French.[6] Calling the witness was therefore “highly problematic.” There was an almost 20-minute discussion on this matter. The president announced that the chamber would review the matter during the lunch break.
As the Nuon Chea Defense Team did not have questions for the Civil Party, the floor was handed to the Khieu Samphan Defense Team. She asked when she had taken an oath before the iron statute, which the Civil Party had said before, as Civil Parties did not have to take an oath. National Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyer Pich Ang clarified that she had said that she was willing to take an oath.
Ms. Guissé moved on and asked whether she met her husband in the village and whether she had known him before her marriage, which she confirmed. “We knew each other since birth.” His birth name was Keng Choeu. This changed to Heng Choeun during the revolution. Her husband left for the battlefield in 1974. She met him once in 1975, where they spent around half a month together before being separated. They then reunited again in 1978. She saw him at the market, where he worked as a laborer. She had sought permission to see him. In 1978, she requested to see him again. “And then we were separated and did not see each other again forever.” In 1978, she was brought to join the New Year celebration. She did not return when she came for that event. They drove a vehicle to pick her up together with her husband in 1978. She was tasked to cook food that was stored in a warehouse. The kitchen was at the place where she slept. The sleeping quarter was around 50 meters away from the warehouse. She got to know the two people who were arrested along with her husband, Run and Ye, when she came to Phnom Penh for New Year. Her husband and the two people worked and ate together. They ate the food that she had cooked. Sometimes she would cook for forty people and sometimes for fifty. There were three or four cooks in the kitchen, so her child would play in the kitchen. Her child was with her husband, which was why her child knew about the whereabouts of her father. Ms. Guissé quoted the Civil Party’s statement, in which she had said that she witnessed the event herself.[7] The Civil Party reiterated that her son saw the event and that there may have been a mistake in her statement. She said she had poor eyesight and high blood pressure, which was why her memory did not serve her well. She said, however, she had agreed to her statement when she signed it. She repeated that her son told her that her husband was put in the vehicle.
Ms. Guissé then inquired whether she understood it correctly that she was sent to a rice field. She confirmed this and said that she was sent to Chey Oudom, where she worked in the rice fields, on the day that her husband was arrested.
Ms. Guissé asked about her period at Battambang.[8] She could not recall the month, but she estimated February or March. It was when the rice yield was collected. She was pregnant at the time, so she had to look after the children of the workers who were in the rice fields. This was in 1978. Ms. Guissé asked about the time period, as she had said that her husband was arrested in October 1978. Ms. Neab said that she was with her husband in April 1978. They separated in December of that year. She was seven month pregnant with her second child when her husband was arrested. She was transferred to Battambang in March.
At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for the lunch break.
Khieu Samphan
The floor was handed to the Khieu Samphan Defense Team, who asked her about the occasion when she saw Khieu Samphan. It was to the north of the market where people were assembled, including the evacuees. He wore black shorts and a white shirt. She did not see him leave. She did not hear him speak. Her husband was next to her at the time.
Ms. Guissé handed the floor to her Cambodian colleague Kong Sam Onn who asked her about the marriage. She said that monks were present, albeit only a few. The name her husband registered his marriage under was Keng Choeu. He was also called Heng Choeun and Kung Choeun. Ta Keng was the father of Choeu and Ta Kung the father of Ta Keng. Mr. Sam Onn inquired where she got her name from. There was some confusion about the names, but the Civil Party said that Kung was her husband’s grandfather. She did not know their surnames, as she was young at the time.
She got the information about the fate of her husband about one month ago. When Mr. Sam Onn asked about why she had not been taken part in Case 001, it was said that the prisoners’ list was not available at the time. He said that Kung Choeu was mentioned as a combatant in the supply office – it had therefore been mentioned before and not only in the new list.[9] She said that she did not know if her husband used his grandfather’s name Kung.
Civil Party Impact Statement
The things that remain with me [are] the sorrow and pain that I have from the previous regime. I was in great difficulty while I was living with my husband. I was pregnant back then and I was forced to travel by national road to Battambang Province. At the time I also had my young child with me, and I did not have my husband with me while I was travelling […] Three days after I delivered my second child [..] I was forced to relocate again. I have so many sorrows and pains with me, and I’d like to ask Khieu Samphan, […] that they made the revolution in order to liberate people who suffered under the previous regime. […] And he claims that he liberated the country through the revolution, but how come people die? And where was he? And why didn’t he see that? And why didn’t he see the suffering that people were in? I’d like to ask him that question in his capacity as a leader of the country.
New Civil Party
A new Civil Party was introduced to the court. He remained anonymous due to ongoing investigations in other cases. Civil Party Lawyer Ty Srinna asked where he lived before April 1975. He replied that he lived in Svay Rieng Province. He was a Lon Nol soldier. The Vietnamese soldiers forced people to leave the area, because the Khmer Rouge were in the area. A friend of his was shot dead. He was then evacuated to Ta Chey Village, Kampong Chamloang, Svay Rieng Province. His brother was accused of being a Lon Nol soldier and called him for a study session, “but in fact he was not taken away to study, he was taken to be killed.”
Around 500 people were imprisoned, including the Civil Party. During his imprisonment, he was assigned to work “very hard.” They gave two rice tins for a group of ten people. “I was forced to work hard, for example to dig canals.” He then corrected his earlier statement and said that the Khmer Rouge soldiers evicted them from their homelands. Some civilians helped protecting the village by standing guard and were accused of “helping the regime.”
He met Khieu Samphan at Svay Ampil Market, where Khieu Samphan distributed rice and clothes for them to continue their journey to the Southwest[10]. They were waiting for vehicles to pick them up and bring them to the train. They all came from the east: Kampong Cham, Svay Rieng and Prey Veng. The market was large enough to accommodate them, but they slept close to each other.
Khieu Samphan at Chbar Ampov Market
Ms. Srinna inquired about her statements, in which she had said that he arrived at 10 am at Psar Thmei.[11] He had said at another place that he arrived at Chbar Ampov Market at the time. He replied that he first did not know Phnom Penh very well and thought it was Central Market. He later realized that it was Chbar Ampov Market. It did not have a concrete wall, but it did have a roof and a concrete floor. It was a white zinc roof. There was an open space inside the market, which was why they were instructed to wait there. It was around 50 meters from the river. He knew the area Nheak Leung. They arrived at this location at some point, but the market they arrived at was not Nhek Leun Market. It was to the north of National Road 1.The bridge was “passable” at the time, because Khmer Rouge soldiers were guarding the bridge.
Khieu Samphan came at around 8 am with around ten of his colleagues some time in 1977. He had watched a film in which Khieu Samphan was shown, which was why he was certain that Khieu Samphan arrived. People were instructed to line up to listen to Khieu Samphan’s speech.
He said he made a revolution in order to eliminate the Lon Nol Regime, and another point was to eliminate the capitalists, feudalists, the intellectuals. He did not want them to exist.
Khieu Samphan wore black clothes and wore a blue scarf. He also had black car tire sandals. His work group wore the same black clothes.
He could not recall in which row he was located, but said that it was somewhere in the middle between fifteen and twenty meters away from Khieu Samphan.
Ten minutes after Khieu Samphan’s speech they distributed the material. “However, it was only a symbolic gesture, as only ten to twenty families received those materials.” Khieu Samphan had a microphone that was 15 to 20 centimeters wide and forty to fifty centimeters long. His work group distributed the material to everyone later. He received his material directly from Khieu Samphan.
The Civil Party received a black shirt (that was not entirely black, however), a blue scarf, and a pack of medicine.
It took them more than hour to go to the railway station. Ms. Srinna inquired what exact words Khieu Samphan used.
“After he arrived, he told people there that we make the revolution in order to topple the Lon Nol regime. Because Lon Nol was the one who opposed the revolution. And another point was for us to oppose the capitalists, feudalists and intellectuals. And later on, he said that in our revolution we would not allow different classes of people, that is the rich and poor and that everyone would be equal.”
He also said that they would be evacuated in order to escape from the “yuon invaders.” They were told to respect the party lines strictly and “not to betray the party.” If they did so, they would be killed. “Because those people would be [of] no use to keep.” The Civil Party could not recall all points of the speech.
Imprisonment and Family Members
Ms. Srinna asked for the reasons of his imprisonment. He replied that he was imprisoned, because he was accused of being a Lon Nol soldier. He had quit the army and became a civilian. He was encouraged to join the militia like his father. “And they accused me of being in that role.” The prison conditions were “very unacceptable.” Five hundred people were imprisoned in one place and they could not sleep because of the bugs. “At the time they did not torture me […] but they used us to dig canals, to pull the carts.”
The Khmer Rouge investigated their background and they found that he had been a soldier before. University students were also detained there. There was a shooting that took place along the road. In the morning, they went “out to see.” They were threatened. “They allowed us to go and see the killing site. We saw many dead bodies. They allowed us to see those dead bodies, and then we were told to go back. They told us not to run away. If we ran away, we would be shot dead. Each day, there would be one or two people taken away and they would be killed [at a nearby hill].” At this time, he was evacuated to a nearby village.
His brother was evacuated together with his father to Prey Veng. They found out that his sister’s husband was a Lon Nol soldier. As a result, his sister was killed at Koh Dach.
They drowned them in a net in the river. We were shocked to hear this.
His father died at Bak Chin Chean. With this, Ms. Srinna concluded her line of questioning.
Evacuees from the East Zone
International Co-Prosecutor Nicholas Koumjian inquired whether he was married during the Khmer Rouge. He denied this – he had been married during the Lon Nol regime. When he put questions that related to Population Movement III, Ms. Guissé objected and said it was outside the scope. Mr. Koumjian said that parts of the movement phase were included. Moreover, it dealt with Khieu Samphan’s speech. The objection was not sustained.
Mr. Koumjian repeated his question and asked why he was traveling through Phnom Penh and where he was going. He replied that he travelled from Svay Rieng to Phnom Penh to travel to Battambang. The first night, he travelled from Ta Chey Village to Traol Kor. Mr. Koumjian wanted to know whether all the people who were at the market were from the East Zone, which the Civil Party confirmed. The evacuees included men, women, and children. There were armed guards positioned alongside the market in order to prevent them from escaping. Khieu Samphan arrived with two cars. The materials were transported on a vehicle and unloaded and distributed there. The truck had a military color.
People were loaded onto a truck hurriedly. When he heard that if they betrayed the party they would be killed, he felt afraid. Even people who had not committed wrongdoings disappeared. “I felt shocked and very worried,” he said. Initially he told them that he was a civilian, but later he felt that he cheated them. “Many days later they found out my background. They took me away and imprisoned me, but fortunately I did not die.” At the time, he was not aware of what would happen.
Mr. Koumjian asked whether he knew if any of the former soldiers survived. He replied that some of “those who were victimized” alongside him survived. There were seventy families who were evacuees from Battambang, twenty of which survived. “Allow me to keep their names confidential.” Mr. Koumjian concluded his line of questioning. The Civil Party’s testimony will continue tomorrow morning at 9 am.
[1] E3/6425, at 01114153 (EN), 00544168 (KH).
[2] E3/6425, at 01152693 (FR), 01114154 (EN), 00544170 (KH).
[3] E3/5542, E3/7708, E3/970.
[4] E3/10744.
[5] E3/2178, at 00021091 (KH), 00631981 (EN), 00631977 (FR).
[6] E3/10717.
[7] E3/6425, at 01152692 (FR), 00544168 (KH), 01114153 (EN).
[8] E3/9479, at answers 31-33.
[9] E3/342, at 00329780 (EN & KH).
[10] This may have been a translation issue. He later said Northwest Zone and Battambang.
[11] D5/545, at 00397758 (KH), 00422204 (EN); E3/5932a.
Featured Image: Civil PArty 2-TCCP-1063 (ECCC: Flickr).