Arrests of East Zone Cadres
Witness Sin Oeng concluded his line of questioning by providing information about visits in the East Zone by Heng Samrin and Nuon Chea and Sao Phim’s arrest. In the afternoon, witness Nuon Trech recalled arrests of high-ranking cadres and division cadres.
Heng Samrin
All parties were present. The floor was handed to the Nuon Chea Defense Team. Counsel Victor Koppe put follow-up questions with regards to Heng Samrin to the witness Sin Oeng. He confirmed that Heng Samrin was the commander of the fourth division. He did not know who his deputy was, as he saw Heng Samrin only once. Mr. Koppe referred to the witness’s DC-Cam statement, in which he had said that he had meals with Heng Samrin regularly.[1] He replied that he used to go to see him, but that he had no time to meet him after the arrest.
Mr. Koppe inquired whether the person Kim was deputy commander of Division 4 before he became commander of Division 5. He replied that he did not know him at the time, but that he learned that he was part of Division 5 at some point. Mr. Koppe referred to an Australian scholar, who had written that Heng Samrin attempted a coup d’état but was betrayed by his second-in-command who warned the government.[2] Mr. Oeng replied that he did not know.
Mr. Koppe asked whether the person shown in a video clip[3] was Heng Samrin. He replied that he was not sure. Mr. Koppe asked whether this person looked like Heng Samrin. The question was prohibited by the bench.
Nuon Chea
Mr. Koppe confronted the witness with another person’s interview, who had talked about Nuon Chea visiting the East Zone in Tuol Preab and Samraong, but did not visit Suong. Mr. Koppe asked whether he was certain that he saw Nuon Chea at Suong, which the witness confirmed. He also confirmed that Nuon Chea slept there. Mr. Koppe inquired whether he recalled saying that Heng Samrin would hug Sao Phim on arrival. He replied that high-ranking officials would usually hug each other when they saw each other. He was not aware that they were discussing.[4] Mr. Koppe asked whether he was aware of a meeting between Nuon Chea and Heng Samrin. He said that this was beyond his knowledge. He did not know what they were discussing. Mr. Koppe asked where Kandal Chrum was. He replied that it was located to the east of Suong and was a small farmers’ village. He was not aware of the location of the headquarters of Ke Pauk.
The Vietnamese did not enter Suong, he said, and only reached a place ten kilometers away from Suong. Mr. Koppe inquired whether he heard of two Vietnamese tanks driving into Kandal Chrum on December 22 1977. He said that he did not know.[5] Mr. Koppe inquired about Pha Au. Mr. Oeng did not know about a secret meeting.
Mr. Koppe then inquired about Chlung district. He replied that he did not know, because he came from far away. He confirmed that there was bombing, but he could not recall the date.[6] Some of the bombing hit civilian targets and destroyed civilian houses. With this, Mr. Koppe concluded his line of questioning.
International Co-Prosecutor Nicholas Koumjian took the floor. The witness said that he was only a guard and did not have other functions. Chhuk was the witness’s supervisor and the one who assigned the protection force when Sao Phim went somewhere. Chhuk reported directly to Sao Phim. Mr. Koumjian said that the other witness and Ben Kiernan had said that forces from the East Zone were transferred to a central force.[7] He answered that he did not know, as he knew “very little about this kind of affairs.”
There were also other staff members who worked at the office, such as cooks. There was a form of radio communication that was installed on vehicles. He did not know how to use it. He did not know whether Sao Phim used any code names.
Mr. Koumjian then read an excerpt of Mr. Oeng’s statement.[8] He said there was fighting, but that he could not recall the date or year. The arrests and fighting was still happening when he left. The witness’s defense unit were never employed at the battlefield. Thus, he did not know what was happening there. He never went to the battlefield. Many cadres were arrested before Sao Phim went to Phnom Penh. Mr. Koumjian wanted to know whether any of those cadres were Khmer soldiers who had fought against Vietnam. The witness answered that “they were arrested, no matter where they were from, as long as they were within the East Zone, they were targeted for the arrest. Whether they were civil officials or cadres, they were all arrested. They were arrested for education, but I myself did not know where they were sent to.” He never saw them again. The witness fled back to his birth place and was separated from the others.
His supervisor Chhuk was arrested one day before the witness was sent to Phnom Penh. Mr. Koumjian read an excerpt of his statement, in which he had said that many people were killed. When Chhuk entered the area to resolve the issue, Mr. Koumjian read, he was beaten to death.[9] The war ended in 1979 and 1980, the witness replied, and he was told that the people were “smashed into a well” when Chhuk came. He learned this information from villagers. A repairman Chhorn was arrested and Chhuk (it was not clear whether the name he was referring to here was Chhoeuk or Chhuk). Chhuk wanted to resolve the issue, but was subsequently also arrested. They were killed by forces from the Southwest and Center. He did no know Sao Phim’s position, but only knew that he was the head of the zone. He did not know about the Standing Committee.
Mr. Koumjian inquired how often Sao Phim would travel to Phnom Penh during the years of 1976, 1977 and early 1978. He answered that he went to Phnom Penh around three times. Mr. Koumjian said that Sao Phim went to Phnom Penh around twice a month.[10] It depended on his assignment how often he went, he replied.
At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.
Sao Phim in Phnom Penh
After the break, Mr. Koumjian asked about his statement that Sao Phim had told Heng Samrin that he would go to Phnom Penh to “sort things out”, but that he should gather forces, “however many there are left”, if Sao Phim did not come back within a week.[11] The witness explained that he wanted to “solve some issues” with the leadership, but that he did not know much about the internal affairs. Mr. Koumjian asked whether he knew what Sao Phim meant when he said “however many there are left.” He replied that these were the people who were spared during the arrests. They were gathered to engage in the resistance movement. Mr. Koumjian asked how many other people Sao Phim brought with him aside from Mr. Oeng. He answered that other people from his group went with him. He did not know how many people exactly. Mr. Koumjian said that last year, he had said that a group of nine people in total went with him. He said that he stood by his statement. He did not know where Sao Phim went in Phnom Penh. Mr. Oeng went to Wat Ounalom. He went to Phnom Penh by using small roads. He did not know the directions very well at the time. He left Prey Veng northwards. Mr. Koumjian asked whether he arrived in Arey Ksat with the nine people with who he left. He confirmed this and said that they arrived at Arey Ksat together. They stayed for the night, and around 2 am “there was an incident.” They arrived at a banana and vegetable plantation. They were surrounded at around 2 or 3 am and guns were fired at them. “He was on the stilt house and he came down and asked what happened.” Some soldiers had shot at them. He told Mr. Oeng to stop firing. They tried to find roads to leave. One person knew a way to get out of the house. “We could leave about thirty or forty meters. Then, fire was shot at us again. We had to run. Then, we had to gather forces to counter the attack.” At this point, Mr. Oeng went onto a motorboat and started the engine. He waited for “him”, but “in vain.” Mr. Oeng then tried to find a place to rest. “I thought at the time that I would die.” He resisted and ran away in order to survive. “And then I jumped into the lake and I remained staying under the water raisins. I was trying my best to swim to another side of the lake. Then I left for my birth place. I stayed in the water from time to time and I tried my best to hide in the waters to avoid the gunfire. I knew at the time that I was surrounded by them.” He hid in a house. After a while, he left this house and hid elsewhere behind a water pot. The people suspected that he was hiding in the house and surrounded it. He was arrested later. “They wanted to kill me, but they first kept me and they made a report that there was a person running from the Southwest. At the time, everyone knew that a person from the Southwest was arrested. There were some people [who knew me], so I was released and placed in a district office.” At the time, the Southwest people approached Vihear Sour, so the witness fled again. It was around 100 meters from the river. “It was raining and very dark at the night. I was disoriented at the time.” He could see the Royal Palace. People were fleeing from different locations. “It was chaotic at the time.” He did not know who were arrested. Those who were linked to the East Zone “were all arrested.” Sao Phim sent messages to Phnom Penh on two occasions. “But he received no news back.” Mr. Koumjian asked whether the letters were addressed to Pol Pot.[12] He answered that no one was able to see the content of the letters. Mr. Koumjian quoted an excerpt, in which he had mentioned the content of a letter. The president instructed the witness to try his best to answer the questions.
Sao Phim arrived at the location and wanted to enter Phnom Penh. He never met the people who he travelled with again. When he was arrested at Vihear Suor, the chief of that location told him that Sao Phim was still alive. He heard about him during the time that he was travelling. He could not recall how many days later, but he estimated that around ten days after this event he received the news that Sao Phim was arrested or killed. He spent about half a month during the journey that he made. He did not witness Sao Phim’s dead body himself. He received news about this incident while he was travelling and the villagers told him that he killed himself when he was surrounded by the force. Mr. Koumjian inquired whether he remembered that Sao Phim’s body was taken around on a horse cart and that someone had said that they scooped out his head and intestines.[13] He replied that he had heard about this, but not seen it with his own eyes. He went to Ounalom Pagoda.
Mr. Koumjian quoted his statement, in which he had said that Sao Phim attended meetings in the palace, and that sometimes Sao Phim also came to Ounalom Pagoda.[14] He confirmed that he brought him to the Royal Palace, but that he did not know who else attended the meetings. He never accompanied Sao Phim to large meetings. Sometimes Sao Phim stopped along the way to chat with the people. He asked about their health and work conditions. It was mentioned that they had to work hard. Those who were with him “would be well aware about the issues of loyalty.” Mr. Koumjian inquired whether Sao Phim ever tried to enlist the witness in some form of rebellion against the leadership, which the witness denied. “Because we were quite young, he did not talk about politics with us.”
He did not know whether Sao Phim went to China. Asked about a skin problem, Mr. Oeng said that Sao Phim had “itchy skin.”
He met many chiefs of sectors, but he did not know who they were and what positions they held. He did not know what they talked about, as he was guarding outside. To refresh his memory, Mr. Koumjian quoted his statement that Sao Phim told sector and district chiefs that they “must implement the upper echelon’s plan.”[15] He answered that they had to fulfil and carry out the order of the echelon regardless of who they were. Mr. Koumjian asked whether death was a consequence of not following orders. People at the lower level had to implement an order from above.[16]
Ordinary people only possessed simple tools like hoes. They were frightened of those people who possessed modern equipment. He did not know all cadres who came to visit. He only recognized them if people knew them and told him about them. He confirmed that Pol Pot came to visit. Food was prepared. Sao Phim greeted him.
Mr. Koumjian inquired whether he recalled Sao Phim’s attitude that he wanted to go to Phnom Penh to talk to Pol Pot, because he had done nothing wrong.[17] He replied that he would go to “sort things out.”
Mr. Koumjian inquired whether Sao Phim was cooperating with the arrests of the East Zone cadres. He said he did not know. Mr. Koumjian asked whether he heard from other East Zone cadres that Sao Phim should have resisted arrests of East Zone cadres, similar to a statement that Ruos Nhim should have resisted in the beginning.[18] At this point, the President adjourned the hearing for a break.
Arrests in the East Zone
After the break, Mr. Koumjian asked whether he saw any advisors from China when he worked in the East Zone. He replied that he never saw any foreign visitors. None of his relatives were arrested, because none of the worked. All of Sao Phim’s relatives were arrested, and all of them died. This included Sao Phim’s younger brother, who was around four and ten years old in 1978. His younger son was still learning at the school at the farm along with other kids. Mr. Koumjian referred to an S-21 list, in which Heng Nor, alias Nath was listed, and who was part of the East Zone hospital committee.[19] He replied that he did not know the family name of the person, but he had met the chief of the hospital of the East Zone, Nath, who was imprisoned together with the witness. They got separated from each other when they were attacked. He was imprisoned when he arrived at his homeland, Mr. Choeng said. Based on his estimation, he spent around ten days in Suong after he fled. The Vietnamese soldiers attacked the area around one month after he was imprisoned. He was held at Kdei Rumruol Pagoda to the north of Svay Rieng Provincial Town. There were more than 200 prisoners, he said. He concealed his identity at the time and said that he was a worker from the plantation. When Mr. Koumjian inquired whether he saw any prisoners being killed, Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel Anta Guissé objected and said it was outside the scope of the trial. Mr. Koumjian responded that this witness was called with regards to the purges of the East Zone and that it was directly relevant to the questions. Ms. Guissé objected and said that it was not among the elements that were foreseen in the severance order. The objection was overruled, as the question was relevant. Mr. Oeng replied that he did not witness it. At night, the prison was bombarded and people escaped. “No one died as a result of the bombardment.” All those who were jailed with him came from different backgrounds: they came from ministries, zones, and sectors. “Although there were cases of killings, they never allowed us to witness.”
Among the sixty individuals who he met when he was young, five or six survived. Some of them escaped to Vietnam and others escaped elsewhere. “Now we are getting older and older.” He never went across any killing fields.
He did not see the arrests. He would only be aware of arrests in his region, as he had no knowledge about other areas. He did not see a film of Vietnamese arrestees. “There was no video. Even radio, there was none.”
Nuon Chea Visits
Mr. Koumjian wanted to know whether it was correct that Nuon Chea slept in the Suong Defense Office. The witness confirmed this. Mr. Koumjian inquired whether it was correct that he slept in the same building as Sao Phim’s bodyguards, which the witness affirmed. He never saw him deliver speeches. [20] At the time that Phy was shot, the witness retreated from the arrest scene. “The shooting took place a few rounds, not just one.” The person was “so scared”, which was why the other person ran back and got a gun. The one who was arrested came from Phnom Penh office. He stood guard with him at night. This person was arrested when he walked towards a location. He did not know this person, but he knew that the person was previously form the East Zone. He was arrested, punched, and shot. He did not know whether he was arrested by colleagues or others. This was at Arey Ksat.
Mr. Koumjian asked whether he knew Meas Soeung, who had said that he received a letter from Sao Phim. In this letter, Sao Phim talked about a suspicion that Son Sen staged a coup d’état.[21] Mr. Oeng had not heard about this. He never told him about the details of the meetings. Mr. Koumjian pointed to Stephen Morris’ work, who had talked about Sao Phim’s suicide.[22] Mr. Oeng answered that he was only assigned to guard him and accompany him sometimes.
At this point, National Civil Party Lead Co-Lawyer Pich Ang took the floor. He never met him in a meeting venue. He never attended any weddings in the east.
The plans were under different unit charges and usually set out in documents.[23] Mr. Koppe objected and said there had not been any difference made between upper echelon and other districts. Mr. Ang asked whether the plans of the upper echelon were conveyed in meetings or in other forms. He replied that he assumed that he held no meetings, but that he did not know.
When Mr. Ang asked about Sao Phim’s superiors, Mr. Koppe objected and said that he had no superior. Mr. Koumjian responded that Pol Pot and Nuon Chea were superior. Mr. Koppe said that the Supreme Court Chamber had ruled on a Joint Criminal Enterprise in which no distinction was made between different positions. MR. Koumjian replied that Nuon Chea was Brother Number 2 and that this put everyone else below him. Judge Fenz said that not every member of a Joint Criminal Enterprise needed to have the same status. The objection was overruled. He replied that as long as plans were distributed to them, they needed to implement them. He never heard him say anything against the party. He did not know whether he respected or complied with the plans. The subordinates had to implement the plans. With this, Mr. Ang concluded his line of questioning.
Questions by the bench
The president had a few clarification questions. He wanted to know whether they directly went to Phnom Penh after Sao Phim made that statement. He replied that he was about to leave. They left Prey Veng after the witness had cleaned the table. There were two jeeps with no cover. One of the drivers was called Meng and the other Kim. He received no news from them. “They may have died.” He did not know what happened to them, except that they were arrested. He did not know the geographical area and was not clear on the divisions of sectors. Chean was one of the sector chairmen. Chan Seang Hong was another. The sector office was to the north of Prey Veng. He never heard about him. He had an office to the east of a mountain. He was in charge of that sector.
The president inquired where the zone headquarter was located. He replied that he never went there himself. People who worked there told him that it had the code name 09. He did not know where the East Zone security office was located either. He heard that there was a security office and that they joked with each other that they had to be mindful of their actions or else they would be sent there. Judge Nonn then inquired whether he ever engaged in fights against the Vietnamese, which the witness denied. “I never went to the battlefields.”
The president gave the floor to Judge Jean-Marc Lavergne, who wanted to know more about the person called Heng Kim. He asked whether he understood it correctly that he had said that Heng Samrin was leading the section. He replied that Eng Kim was the division commander of Division 5. Judge Lavergne asked whether he knew what happened to Heng Kim. He only heard about his name.
Judge Lavergne said that he was on the prisoner list of S-21 and it was indicated that he entered the prison on 5 June 1978. Mr. Koppe interjected. The Khieu Samphan Defense Team did not have any questions for the witness. The president thanked and dismissed him.
New Witness: Nuon Trech
The president announced that the testimony of 2-TCW-1070 would be only one day.
Witness Nuon Trech (2-TCW-1060), alias Preab, alias Ol, was born in Trapeang Chuk Village in Steung Trong District, Kampong Cham Province.
The floor was handed to the Nuon Chea Defense Team to put questions to the witness. Mr. Koppe asked whether he also gave an interview to the organization DC-Cam. He wanted to know what he was doing before. He said that he was working at a location called 304. He worked as a medic before 1975. He worked at the district hospital at Chamkar Leu. In 1975, he was transferred to the Zone General Staff Hospital. When Phnom Penh was liberated, he was transferred to K-99, and then to a military hospital 340 of Battalion 310. Mr. Koppe inquired what kind of medical training he had received. He received that he had not received any special kind of training. He was a soldier before 1975: he was recruited as combatant in 1973. They belonged to the front battlefield. He was the zone military when he worked in the army. He joined the army when he was 15. Oeun was Division 310 commander and Voeung his deputy. He was a medic before Phnom Penh was liberated.
Mr. Koppe asked whether Preah Ket Melea Hospital was known to him as the P-99 hospital. The hospital was under the Division of 310. Mr. Koppe asked whether it was also known as P-97 or P-98. He was responsible for treating wounded soldiers and people with malaria. He worked there for nearly one year and was then transferred to Battalion 314.[24] He was arrested at this place. They were accused of being a traitor.
Mr. Koppe asked whether he continued working as a medic when working at Battalion 314. Division 310 lacked medics, which was why medics from P-99 were sent through 314 to the logistic unit of Division 310. He worked there for one year, at which point he heard that Division 310 betrayed and wanted to attack Phnom Penh. Leaders of Division 310 and leaders of platoons and battalions were arrested from time to time.
Mr. Koppe asked where P-99 Hospital was located. To his understanding, the witness explained, it was at a military hospital close to Wat Phnom and Calmette Hospital. It was under Division 310. Calmette Hospital was a pediatric hospital. He was told that the divisional commander was arrested, because he had betrayed.
He was mobile at the time. He was assigned to farm at the same time. He did not know how many kilometers he was away from Tuol Kork antenna. People mentioned the name. He was stationed close to this antenna. The TV station was not operating at the time. Mr. Koppe asked whether there was also a radio antenna that was used around that area at the time. Mr. Trech replied that the radio antenna was at a different location. It was located at Steung Meanchey.
Arrests of Division Leaders
Mr. Koppe sought more information about the arrest of division commander Oeun. He said that members from Division 314 and other regiments were convened to a meeting. They were told that their leaders had betrayed and that they should remain calm. At the time, he was around 18 or 19 years old. Oeun’s voice was played over a loudspeaker. Mr. Koppe asked whether he remembered any details that were given to them about what Koy Thuon, Oeun, and others had done. He could not recall them, he said. He returned to his unit and leaders were arrested from time to time. They were told that they were reassigned to other locations. Mr. Koppe asked whether he remembered when the tape was played after the arrest. He replied that it was around half a month. He first thought that he himself was simply reassigned to another location and not arrested.
Mr. Koppe read an excerpt of his statement, in which he had said that he was picked up by a vehicle. He recounted that he was put under investigations for two or three days, before his chairman took him to his previous workplace. He realized on that day that it was a prison. They made his brief biography and took his photograph. He was put in an American-made truck and sat face-back. This was in Phnom Penh. The truck was covered, so he could not see where he was going.
He recalled that the place was the prison. His chairman asked to have him back “for refashion.” He was accused of being linked to the “enemy network” and that he was transferred to Kampong Chhnang Airfield for work. He first did not know that it was a prison.[25] Ol was the one who detained people. After people were placed at the prison, those people would be sent to Tuol Sleng afterwards. He did not come to Phnom Penh after 1979 and therefore did not visit Tuol Sleng Prison.
The President adjourned the hearing. It will continue tomorrow at 9 am with the testimony of 2-TCW-920 via audiovisual link and Mr. Trech on the reserve.
[1] E3/10717 01353341 (EN), 01340556 (KH), 01345494 (FR).
[2] E3/10699, at 01335197 (EN).
[3] E3/3015R, at 01:51/
[4] E3/4202, at 00757535 (EN), 00849445 (FR), 00858353 (KH).
[5] E3/1593, at 01150194 (EN), 00639154 (FR), 00637826 (KH).
[6] At 01353309 (EN), 01345473 (FR), 01340536 (KH).
[7] E3/1593.
[8] At 01353373 (EN), 01340575 (KH), 01345513 (FR).
[9] At 01340555 (KH), 01345492 (FR).
[10] At 01340559 (KH), 01345498 (FR), 01353348 (EN).
[11] At 01353388 (EN), 01340585 (KH), 01345523 (FR).
[12] At 01353393 (EN), 01340588 (KH), 01345525 (FR).
[13] At 01340597 (KH), 01345534 (FR), 01353407 (EN).
[14] At 01345496 (FR), 01340558 (KH).
[15] At 013533368 (EN), 01340572 (KH), 01345510 (FR).
[16] At 01353377 (EN), 0134078 (KH), 01345516 (FR).
[17] At 01354203 (EN), 01340501 (KH), 01348544 (FR).
[18] E3/10665.
[19] E3/10604, ERN ending at 1176.
[20] At 01355391 (EN), 01345525 (FR).
[21] E3/5531, at answer 62.
[22] E3/7338, at 01001773 (EN).
[23] E3/10714, at 01327932 (KH).
[24] E3/7877, at 00346978 (EN), 00342436 (KH), 00411784 (FR).
[25] E3/7537, at 00251253 (EN), 00019646 (KH), French ERN ends at 003 (FR).
Featured image: Witness Nuon Trech (ECCC: Flickr).