Beginning of a New Segment: Security Center Au Kanseng

Today, March 02 2016, Civil Party Uch Sunlay concluded his Civil Party impact statement on harms suffered and gave more detail about the arrests and deaths of his family members. Next, Phan Thol was the first witness to testify in relation to Au Kanseng Security Center. He had been imprisoned in what he called the Reeducation School for around 18 months and described the living conditions there.

 

Civil Party Uch Sunlay

At the beginning of the session, Trial Chamber Greffier confirmed the presence of all parties. Nuon Chea followed the proceedings from the holding cell. After the conclusion of Uch Sunlay’s impact statement on harms suffered, witness 2-TCW-933 would be heard in relation to Au Kanseng Security Center.

Assistant Prosecutor Andrew Boyle resumed yesterday’s line of questioning. He inquired about the killings that had been witnessed by an individual called Thol. Mr. Sunlay said that the villager’s name was Thol and he transported the Vietnamese descendants to the execution place. He said that he secretly watched the incident. Thang Hing, the militiaman, “chased him away” when noticing that Thol was watching. The small children were chased by the Khmer Rouge so that they could be smashed against a tree trunk, according to Thol. Children and small babies were killed. Amongst them were his small children: two boys and one girl, 1973, 1975 and one year old. He said that his wife and children were amongst the targeted group: his wife had a mother with Vietnamese ancestors. Another reason was that their background was well-known by the Khmer Rouge. They knew that he was a teacher beforehand and married a half-blooded Vietnamese. He had no means to help his family. He could “do nothing but cry to relieve my suffering”. He recounted that “my suffering was like people were removing my internal organs”. He suspected that he would die one day. On December 2 1978, he could “hear the sounds of explosion”. At that time, he hoped that he would be rescued from the regime.

Mr. Boyle wanted to know why his children were also targeted for execution. He replied that his wife’s background was known by the Khmer Rouge, whose policy was that “when digging the grass, they had to uproot the grass”. Asked about this policy, he said that he was not a politician. “Politics meant a trick”, he explained. He further elaborated that they had to eradicate the roots when killing someone.

Mr. Boyle wanted to know whether he knew any other perpetrator than Uk Thang Hing. He answered that he had known the perpetrators. Another individual was called Adang and had curly hair. Two others were Thang Hieng and Ach Choeung.

He said that the direct perpetrators were walking at night to patrol the village. He said that they did not kill “on their own initiative”, but rather were following a “secret plan communicated to them”. They were secret agents in the cooperative. “He did not act on his own initiative. There was a secret order from the upper echelon, and this secret order went down the line.”

Mother-in-law, sister-in-law,

Mr. Boyle wanted to know what his wife’s relation was to Chhey Chhan Visal. He answered that Ka Samny was his wife’s name. His wife and a younger sibling of hers, she did not know any Vietnamese. During Buddhist rituals, she only spoke Khmer. “I felt happy for some of the Vietnamese, who had gone to Vietnam three or four months before that incident happened.” He said that he had thought beforehand that nothing would happen to his wife and children, which was a “wrong understanding”, he said. “The Khmer Rouge were extreme.” Regarding is mother-in-law, three months after a certain date (translation unclear), they were executed. The people chased the driver to come back. He knew this information only after the liberation.

Mr. Boyle read an excerpt from his Supplementary Information Form, in which he had said that his mother-in-law was asked to get onto a truck at a pagoda in Kratie Province to go to Vietnam in late 1978, but was actually taken to Mountain 5000 at Snuol District in Kratie Province and never deported.[1] Mr. Sunlay confirmed that this was in accordance with his memory. He did not know about the method of execution, but he learned this information from the driver of the truck. His father-in-law Chhay Kim Eng was a clerk in Kratie and was forced to marry Myng Leng, who was 60 years old at the time. They were the 11^th couples. They were killed later. They did not love each other and did not want to get married. He heard that he was killed at Ta Saom in Kratie Province. “I really want to find the remains of their bones so that I could gather and hold the Buddhist ceremony”, but had searched in vain. He was killed because he was a clerk. He was also accused of being a Vietnamese spy, since he had met a Vietnamese wife and his children were half-blood. “His wife and children were all killed.”

 

Arrests of family members

The arrests and executions by the militia groups were done secretly, which meant they did not have to use bullets. The husbands would be sent to a far-away place to cut trees, while other family members would be sent to the island Koh Tral. Thus, it was easier to execute them on the island.

His family members Sa Kymnah (younger sister of his wife) and Chhun Sa Ym were all accused of being agents for KTB and having Vietnamese blood. The same applied for Sa Rin and Sa Ra.

These executions took place close to the liberation day.

I lost all my relatives, my children, my wife. They killed those people without any mercy. This is why I want to ask the senior leaders: Why they had a policy even to kill the babies and the young infants. Is it so that because you become immortal?

At this point, Mr. Boyle finished his questioning and the floor was granted to Judge Lavergne. He wanted to know what he could say about the organization of Region 505 in which he was residing. He answered that he lived in Sector 505 in Kratie Province, which was an autonomous province that was not under the administration of the zones. The chief of Sector 505, Buon Nang, used to study at the same lycée, but was executed later. He knew that the area was under the leadership of a Sector Committee. Later he realized that Sector 505 was accused of betraying Angkar and was replaced by the Northeast Zone, then the East Zone, and then the Southwest Zone.

 

Teachers joined the revolution

The former teachers of the previous regime, including himself, fled to the forest. Some of them, including Buon Nang, were promoted to be Sector 505 chiefs. Another one was promoted to be ambassador in North Korea. The purges took place, because they were accused of betraying the revolution. The cadres from the Southwest Zone came in 1978.

The Defense Team for Nuon Chea did not have questions for this Civil Party. Khieu Samphan Defense Counsel Kong Sam Onn started his line of questioning by asking where he lived in Kratie Province. He answered that Kratie province was first liberated in that zone. Many people joined the revolution.

His teacher’s colleagues joined the revolution in 1968. They were senior teachers and professors at Koh Somna College. They tried to motivate other people to join the force. He refused to join the revolution as the only person in this group.

Mr. Sam Onn asked when his mother-in-law was sent to Vietnam and killed on the way. He answered that she was arrested in October 1978. His father-in-law was forced to marry another woman in November 1978. The militia had to monitor the targeted individuals at night time. “I heard dogs barking at night and I knew that they were deployed to monitor those people.” He was subject to monitoring at night. They were constantly monitored by a militia group.

The chiefs of the militiamen were Uch Buong Nang, Mung Hiem, Sruch, and Chheung.

Mr. Sam Onn wanted to know whether these men worked as militiamen from 1970 until 1979, which he confirmed. They continued their militiamen activities until 1979 and dispersed afterward.

He learned of the successions of the cadres through the announcement of the cooperative chief. Meetings would be held on every 10^th, 20^th and 30^th of each month. The replacement of the cadres was announced then.

He was not aware of any change in the commune committee. In 1973 during the aerial bombardment, professor Thy Ol opened a conference called the Conference for Intellectuals.

Boeun was part of the district committee. He was assigned to be in charge of a cooperative. There was “no re-shuffle”, and no one replaced him “until the liberation of the front.” Every time the committee was replaced, Chhayk was on the district committee. This person was a chemistry teacher and had a relationship with “dozens of cadres”. Later, this person was accused of betraying Angkar and replaced.

His father was a former clerk and a former servant in Sihanouk Regime. He also married a half-blooded Vietnamese, which were the reasons according to Mr. Sunlay why he was killed. He was forced marry and was killed in 1978. Couples were “immediately arranged to be in the marriage”. With this, Mr. Sam Onn finished his line of question.

 

The Civil Party was then given opportunity to put questions to the accused through the President.

 

I have two questions through you, Mr. President, to put to the two accused, who are present in this court room and in the room downstairs. Why did the Khmer Rouge have a policy to gather up small babies and children as well to be killed? My second question is, why the Democratic Kampuchea took those who practiced Buddhist religion, including my father who was achar, to be killed and why were they accused to be those who were betraying the Angkar.

Did Khmer Rouge want themselves to be gods in heaven? My father was killed, because he burned incents to pay respect to Buddha. These are my two questions to be put to the accused. […]. This is the last chance that I can address the Chamber and tell the world that the genocidal acts were committed by those who were part of [the regime].

 

The President Nil Nonnthen informed Mr. Sunlay that the accused exercised their right to remain silent. He thanked Mr. Sunlay and dismissed him.

 

Witness Phan Thol

After the break, the President ordered to usher in 2-TCW-933. Phan Thol was born on June 16 1950 was born in Au Srangam Village, Rongoeun Subdistrict,  Svay Rieng District, Svay Rieng Province. He now lives in Village 1, La Ban Siek Subdistrict, Banlung District, Ratanakiri Province. He is a district council member. He is father of five children, two of whom passed away.

Senior Assistant Prosecutor Travis Farr asked when he started working at a rubber plantation. He replied that he worked there since 1962. It was located in Ratanakiri Province. After 17 April 1975, the workers at the rubber plantation were dispersed.

Mr. Farr referred to his Written Record of Interview, in which he had said that he worked again at the rubber plantation until 1976 under the supervision of the Khmer Rouge.[2] Mr. Thol confirmed that this was correct. The supervisor of that rubber plantation was Tum.  He was the unit chief. He did not know whether this person held any other positions. Turning back to his statement, Mr. Farr quoted Mr. Thol, who had said that Tum was part of the Zone Committee as well.[3] Mr. Thol replied that he did not know, but saw him distribute clothes and rice and the rubber plantation. Mr. Farr asked whether Tum had any position in Division 801 or any other military division in 1976. Mr. Thol said that he did not know.

Mr. Farr turned to the next topic and inquired whether he was married when he was working at the rubber plantation. Mr. Thol replied that he did not marry in the rubber plantation. He got married in Trapeang Chres Cooperative in 1972. He was still married to his wife Moeung Chandy when working at the rubber plantation. When working at the rubber plantation, he did not have children yet. In late 1976, one child was born, but died later. They divorced after the liberation day, and he married another woman. He spoke to his ex-wife the last time in 1986.

Mr. Farr then asked Mr. Thol to describe his arrest and transfer to Au Kanseng Security Center. Mr. Thol recalled that on 16 June 1977 at around 7 am, when leaving for work at the rubber plantation, the union chief called him at the worksite and told him that he had to “prepare his luggage” to study at the re-education school at the Angkar school. He told his wife about this, and packed his luggage, including a mosquito net and clothes. Mr. Farr asked whether this was announced by Tum, which Mr. Thol denied. He replied that Tum was in charge of supervising all villages in the rubber plantation.

Mr. Farr wanted to know how he could remember the date of his arrest “with such precision”. He answered that he was “sure about the exact date” when he was arrested. “I was sure about this exact date, and I can still remember until now.” When being arrested, he did not know “whether I had any wrongdoing”. When arriving at the prison, they interrogated him and told him that he had done something wrong. They asked him whether he knew that he committed anything wrong. “I told the interrogator that I did not do anything wrong”. The interrogator asked him several times, and told him that he belonged to the “upper class” and used “art craft techniques” to treat the rubber trees that had diseases, which was not the techniques to be used by the peasant class but the feudalist technique, according to the interrogator. They said that the techniques by the farmer class were different. “They also asked me to elaborate on the alleged feudalist class techniques that I used.” He told them that they used products that were important from foreign countries to treat the rubber trees. They told him that these techniques were not required, which was why they sent him to be re-educated. On the same day, there were around ten other people who were also transported by the Chinese gas truck. They were all workers in the union. He was a worker in the union as well.

Mr. Farr wanted to know whether he knew if anything happened to his wife at the time. He answered that women were put in one building and men in another building. His wife Moeung Chandy was also arrested with him. Mr. Farr referred to the witness’s interview, in which he had said that his wife was pregnant at the time of the arrest and delivered the baby in prison.[4] He confirmed this information and said that the baby was born in prison. The baby survived the regime and was married today.

After having been arrested, he was asked to disembark the truck and women and men were separated. They were put in a house with a leaf roof and wooden walls. The security guards locked them in rows and they were told to sleep quietly. He did not remember how many prisoners there were. They were sleeping foot to foot and there were two rows. They could see the other house in which his wife was, but he did not receive any news from her at that time.

The official name of Au Kanseng Security Center was the Re-education School. It was run by Division 801. He did not see the facial figure of the unit chief, but Saroeun was the commander of Division 801.

He said that Se was the supervisor, Chhang his deputy and Tin another cadre who was responsible for the prison. Mr. Farr wanted to know whether Se’s surname was Chhaom. Mr. Thol replied that he did not know the name. Mr. Farr then inquired whether he knew why he was sent to that security center, despite not having been part of Division 801. He answered that prisoners were from different areas. They included ordinary people, soldiers and other types of people. He did not know why civilians had been sent to the security center, since it was at the discretion of Angkar.

Ordinary people were those who were from villages and communes, while soldiers were brought in from borders. The ordinary people were from Lumphat and Voeun Say. He did not know how many prisoners there were in total, since at that time his “ankle was shackled.”

 

Jarai Minority

Turning to the next topics, Mr. Farr asked about the time that the Jarai Tribes people were brought to the prison. He answered that some Jarai were sent to other places, while some were dropped off in front of the security center. Houses were prisoners were detained were made from bamboo. They were not allowed to leave the house, but they could see through the cracks in the wall and “poke our hands through”, so they could see what happened outside. Mr. Farr read an excerpt of his Written Record of Interview, in which he had said that the number of Jarai people who were arrested was around a 100.[5] Mr. Thol replied that this was an estimate. There were toddlers and small babies in that group, and there were also pregnant women in that group. The clothes were dirty with patches and usually worn by the poor. He knew they were Jarai, because the security guards had talked about this. He overheard that they walked hundreds of them and took the Jarai out of two trucks.

The security guards were tired, he recalled them saying, because they had brought in too many prisoners at night. He could not recall the period they were detained there, but they were there briefly. It was less than one week. They were tied up in lines with strings and then walked away by the security guards. Two days later, he was assigned to work at a jackfruit plantation, where he saw a grave under palm trees. He saw blood and there were shoes – sandals – and he suspected that the Jarai minority people had perhaps been killed. The clothing remained at the graves. Mr. Farr wanted to know whether these were the same clothes that he had seen worn by the Jarai people who had been arrested.

At this point, Nuon Chea Defense Counsel Victor Koppe objected to the question and said that the witness could not answer this question. Mr. Farr rephrased his question and he said that the clothes were blue with patches and he assumed that the same clothes were worn by the Jarai people.

He had said in his interview that he saw backpacks, torches, shoes and clothes that made him conclude that the people were Jarai.[6] He answered that the group that had been taken away were with backpacks. He did not see the dead bodies at the grave, but clothes with blood.

Mr. Farr again referred to his Written Record of Interview. He had told the investigators that he saw dead bodies as well.[7] Mr. Thol answered that he smelled the discomposed bodies in that grave, which was not fully covered, upon his arrival. The grave was around one kilometer away from the detention center. The location was cleared later and turned into brick houses.

Mr. Farr moved to the next topic. He inquired whether he recalled anyone else ever being killed at the jackfruit plantation. He said that he was assigned to guard the jackfruits and not allow people to get into that plantation. While guarding, he was sitting on a jackfruit tree, from which he could see “the actual killings”. Most people were killed with the back of the hoes and then thrown into the trenches dug by former Lon Nol soldiers. He could see the killing of three or four people. Some people could not even walk and were carried to the execution site, before being smashed, killed and buried. The killings were carried out by security guards of Au Kanseng. He could not recall their names, since he could not communicate with others. He did not know where the other prisoners were from.

 

 

Burial of a person

After the break, the floor was given to the Co-Prosecutors. Mr. Farr moved to another incident that he discussed in his Written Record of Interview, which related to a person called Tin. Mr. Thol denied having seen him kill anyone. He did recall an occasion when Tin had asked him to bury a body. He said that there were two persons: Tin and Tim. Tin was the security guard at the reeducation school. The detainees were of an ethnic minority. One person fled at night time. They placed a checkpoint on the road and the person returned at 2 am. Tin used an AK-47 rifle shoot that detainee. He witnessed the shooting. He did not know whether he was Charay or Kovuldy  . he fled to have a meal at a village, but came across the security checkpoint when returning and was shot dead. He was on his way back to the Re-Education Center when they shot him. It was on the way to a plantation field, which is now a cashew plantation.

Turning to the next incident, Mr. Farr asked him whether he recalled an incident during which a woman’s gallbladder was removed and to describe it. Mr. Thol recalled that the security guard Ngob had hacked her back open, removed her gallbladder and hung it at the kitchen door. He did not see the killing, but saw the bloody gallbladder. Nhoc himself had told people in the kitchen hall that he had taken out her gallbladder. He did not know the reason. Referring to his Written Record of Interview, Mr. Farr said that he had stated that she had been sexually immoral with a man and that her husband’s name was Son.[8] Mr. Thol said that he recalled that she was accused of having an affair with a man.

Moving onto the next topic, Mr. Farr inquired whether he recalled an occasion where five or six Vietnamese prisoners were brought to the reeducation center. Mr. Thol could not recall this incident.

Chhaom Se had said in his interview that six Vietnamese people had been taken prisoners at a battlefield.[9] Mr. Farr asked whether this refreshed the witness’s memory, which Mr. Thol denied.

Mr. Farr again switched topics and inquired about torture and interrogations. He wanted to know whether he was aware of torture ever being used during interrogation processes at Au Kanseng. He answered that his hands were tied and feet were shackled, but he was not tortured. Other detainees were beaten and electrocuted with the “power of a manual phone”. The interrogation was carried out in a long house, while he was interrogated at a different place around 50 meters from where he was detained. The other people were interrogated in the long building. He witnessed the torture personally. The reeducation center’s building was made of bamboo tree leaves, which is why he could see through the walls. Tin was his interrogator.

Mr. Farr said that he had mentioned a specific interrogation incident and asked whether he remembered this. He confirmed this and said that the prisoner who was brought in from a specific location were asked about their biographies. When they thought that the biography was not consistent with the information they had, they tortured him with a plier until he became unconscious. There was only one prisoner who was tortured that way. The prisoner disappeared the next day and he did not know where he was taken to.

During his own interrogation, he was asked which offenses he had made, to which he answered that he had not made any mistake. He was only asked about techniques to treat the trees, he said. In his Written Record of Interview, he had said that he was afraid of being accused of being a KTB agent.[10] Mr. Farr wanted to know why he was afraid of being accused. He answered that the prisoners were afraid of talking, since they were afraid of being accused of being a KTB or CIA agent, since this happened to people who were taken away. He was not aware of any actual event during which a prisoner was taken away based on this accusation, but he had heard the prisoners talk about this. They had said that most of the people who had been killed were KTB or CIA agents. They said this amongst themselves.

 

Rules at the center

As for the location itself, he said that there were three long buildings in which the prisoners were housed. He did not know the conditions, but he knew that there were three types of imprisonment:

• Chained and locked
• Shackled with metal bars
• Shackled with wooden bars

Any detainee who arrived would be placed in a wooden shackle. There was no bathroom at the center. They had to relieve themselves into a bamboo flute and empty it when being let out. There were two rules: not to flee and not to steal. Mr. Farr wanted to know whether he was aware of any other prisoner than the one who tried to flee who violated rules. He answered that one prisoner stole a durian seed when it was planted and burned it. At night time, he was taken away and killed. He knew that they were detained in that detention building, and whenever detainees were called out at night, they were all “terrified”, since those who were called out never returned.

He confirmed that there were prisoners who fell sick and died. The detainee Ngoeun, who was also a rubber plantation worker, died of diarrhea. Another detainee also died of dysentery. He did not know about any treatment they might have received. As for his wife, he recounted that the medic came to see her every day when she was due, but he did not know the kind of medicine she received.

 

Work

Next, Mr. Farr inquired about work they had to carry out in the Security Center. He answered that they had to plant potatoes and vegetables. They had to carry wood occasionally when they had to cut wood in the forest and build a house for the commanders to reside in. The work was to pull the grass with their hands without any hoes. They planted vegetables with human fertilizer. There was no work quota. They would work as a group, except those who worked in the kitchen. There were no specific working hours. They would work in the morning, have a lunch break and then resume to work. They were allowed to rest in the evening, but not allowed to move freely. Mr. Farr read an excerpt, in which he had described the working hours.[11] He wanted to know whether this refreshed his memory. Mr. Phol replied that this statement was correct. However, they depended on the “biological clock” or the sun. They worked from the morning until 11 am or 12 pm.

 

Food

As for food ration, Mr. Phol recounted that they mixed rice with corn and sweet potato. They received a bowl of meal. The bowl was small. They received one bowl of soup for four people. They were not given supplementary or sufficient food. “I was so skinny. I never weighed myself, but you know, the trousers that I wore, were so loose.”

Mr. Farr then wanted to know whether he had understood him correctly that he had given two interviews: one at the Khmer Rouge Re-Education School and the other in his home. Mr. Farr wanted to know whether he had understood him correctly. Mr. Phol answered that he was interrogated there and once in a building where he was detained. A foreigner interviewed him at the old Education School. Another time a Khmer person interviewed him at his home.

With this, Mr. Farr finished his line of questions.

 

Division 801

Given the word, Civil Party Lawyer Ty Srinna opened her line of questioning by inquiring about the person called Saroeun, who was commander of Division 801. He confirmed that he had given this statement. He was not part of the division and was not allowed freely. Thus, he only knew the security guard at Au Kanseng, who told him that the commander was Saroeun. He did not know anyone else. She then wanted to know how detainees were detained at the center. He answered that there were regulations. When they were interrogated, they had to give answers. When they did not give answers, “perhaps they were tortured”. As for the number of detainees, he recalled that upon his entry, he passed a building and did not dare to look into that building. He saw detainees who were locked into the metal bars.

He was guarded by four or five security guards and did not dare to look anywhere else except to follow the guards. He was detained until December 1978, after having been arrested on 17 June 1977. He escaped when there were attacks by the Vietnamese. To his knowledge, the detainees were not transferred anywhere else. At night time, the security guards called out three or four names. She asked whether it was correct that these prisoners were replaced. He replied that if a person was told that they were sent for re-education, that person never returned.

One time, he saw a large group of people being sent in, which was the Jarai minority group.

 

Conditions and buildings

Ms. Srinna inquired about the living conditions of the detainees. He answered that as for the living conditions, they were required to work during day time and locked in at night time. They had to be quiet at night time.

Ms. Srinna then wanted to know the distance between the interrogation room and the detention room. He replied that it was around 50 meters away. The interrogation “did not make much sound”. They interrogated the detainees “very softly”, but sometimes he could hear the screaming. She then wanted to know whether he “happened to hear” that the music was plaid over the loudspeakers when the executions took place. At this point, Mr. Koppe objected and said that he had not talked about executions taking place at night time and there was “no evidence” for executions. Moreover, there was no basis to ask about music. Mr. Srinna moved on.

After the interrogation, no one was freed. Ms. Srinna wanted to know whether many people were in the kitchen hall when Nhok hang the gallbladder in the kitchen hall. He answered that it took place at around 9 o’clock and some of the detainees had already been sent to work. Thus, only those working in the kitchen could witness it. The people who worked in the kitchen hall “were so frightened”.

Ms. Srinna then wanted to know whether he saw a B-52 crater. He answered that he only saw one crater. Most of the bodies were buried in the trenches. It was a former base of Lon Nol soldiers, which was why ever building had trenches. Most bodies were buried there. He did not know whether torture was inflicted on women and children. He did not know how many prisoners were detained when the attacks took place. There were more than twenty who fled. When they left Au Kanseng, while being on route to the border demarcation of Stung Treng Province, some could not walk or were ill and could not move on. “Some of the people were purged while en route”. Those who could not walk, because they had swollen arms or legs, were placed in one location. When the Vietnamese troops reached Ratanakiri Province, people were in shock and would not wait for those who could not walk properly. When they reached the Sap Kong River Bank, the forces from the security center were fleeing, while the detainees were also fleeing separately. With this, Ms. Srinna finished the examination for the Civil Party lawyers.

 

Clarification of dates

At the beginning of the last session, the floor was granted to the Nuon Chea Defense Team. International Defense Counsel Victor Koppe asked why he was certain that it was June 16 1977 that he was arrested. He replied that he worked in the union and remembered the date that he worked there and could still remember it until now. Mr. Koppe said that it was exactly one day after his birthday and asked whether this was the reason or whether there was another reason. He answered that it had “nothing to do with that”, but that the date was “clearly” in his mind. They interrogated him once, which lasted for about thirty minutes. They did not interrogate him until three or four days after he arrived at the security center. When Mr. Koppe asked when his wife was interrogated, he replied that the questions seemed to be repetitious, since he had told the Court earlier that he and his wife could not see each other.

Mr. Koppe read an excerpt of his interview, in which he had said that he was imprisoned for a month, and that after two or three months they stopped keeping him in chains.[12] Mr. Thol replied that the Reeducation School’s discipline was that they banned them from fleeing, but he never did anything against the instructions. He answered that he was ordered to stay for a while after he was interrogated. A while later, he was instructed to grow vegetables and sent to the detention cell at night time. The women’s group was not at Au Kanseng detention, but placed in a different building than the men. The men were all chained. The women’s group received more leniency than the men, since they were not shackled. They were allowed to remove grass within the compound of the prison.

 

Jarai

Turning to the incident during which he claimed to have seen the Jarai group, Mr. Koppe inquired how many days, weeks, or months after June 16 1977 he saw them. He answered that he did not know how many days after he arrived at the prison this took place. He estimated that it was around a month later that the Jarai people were sent to the prison.

Mr. Koppe asked whether he was asked about activities of any yuon within the plantation. He answered that they did not ask him any other questions and simply accused him of using the feudalist methods.

Mr. Koppe said that his former wife had said that they had accused her of having communicated with the yuon.[13] Mr. Koppe asked whether his former wife told him that she was asked questions about yuon, which he denied. He did not know which kinds of questions were posed to her. He insisted that he had not been asked about yuon.

Mr. Koppe then requested leave to present a telegram sent on the 15 June 1977 by Vy, which he said was unclear to whom it was sent, and which partially dealt with the arrest of a group of Jarai in the Northeast Zone.[14] Mr. Farr interjected and clarified the telegram had been copied to Brother Nuon, Brother Vorn and Brother Khieu. The request was granted. Mr. Koppe read out an excerpt of the second page, which mentioned the network of Layng who was in connection to Hanoi. The witness replied that he did not understand this matter. He did not know this person. Neither had he heard of a person called Khev. He explained that he had not been thinking about the authority structures at the time. Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether he knew Ya, whose real name was Ney Saran. He confirmed having heard this name, but had never met him.

As for when he saw the graves with the bodies that he claimed to have seen on the jackfruit plantation, he said that this took place when he started working at the jackfruit plantation. He guarded the jackfruit plantation. This took place around a week after he saw the Jarai arrive at the prison.

Mr. Koppe asked how this was possible, since he had said that he was kept in prison for around two months after his interrogation before being sent to work. He answered that he saw them arriving around four or five days later, a week after which he went to the jackfruit plantation.

Mr. Koppe said that a group of around 209 Vietnamese soldiers were arrested around June 14, including Jarai. Mr. Koppe said it might be possible that this was the same group and asked how it was possible to see them so shortly after having arrived there, since he was still in chains. Mr. Phol replied that he could see it through the cracks in the wall. Mr. Koppe asked whether it was possible that he saw the decomposing bodies “much much later”, perhaps even at the end of 1978. He replied that he did not remember the exact year. He remembered that he saw the bodies when being sent to work at the jackfruit plantation.

Mr. Koppe inquired whether the guards had talked about guns and rifles having been found amongst the Jarai whom he saw. He denied having heard about this.

Mr. Koppe moved on and asked when he was trusted by the Au Kanseng Security People. He answered that they did not tell him, but this was his conclusion from their behavior. He did not do anything against the rules. Mr. Koppe wanted to know whether the compound was around 200 meters by 200 meters. Mr. Phol replied that he did not know the size. He was allowed to work inside the compound for a while unchained, after which he was allowed to work outside the compound to plant potatoes and guard the jackfruit plantation. After removing the grass at the potato plantation, he planted corn, after which he guarded the jackfruit plantation. He did not know how many months after his arrival this took place. It was when the jackfruit was “about to get ripe”. When Mr. Koppe asked when jackfruits got ripe, the witness laughed and apologized for laughing. He said they became ripe when getting old, which was in the dry season. He said that this took place in February and March. This was when he saw the “dead cracked open” at the former bomb crater. When Mr. Koppe asked whether this was around Khmer New Year, the witness corrected him and said that Khmer New Year was not in February or March, but on the 13^th of April of that year. He then said he could not recall when exactly this took place. The earth cracked open and he concluded that the bodies were under it.

Mr. Koppe asked whether it was fair to conclude that he saw decomposing bodies seven or eight months after his arrest. Mr. Thol denied this and said they were taken away around a week later. Later, when going to the jackfruit plantation, he saw the bodies.

 

Executions at the jackfruit plantation

He confirmed having witnessed executions at the jackfruit plantation. Mr. Thol said that he saw two executions. Mr. Koppe read an excerpt of his Written Record of Interview, in which he had said having seen one person being killed.[15] He answered that one person was already dead and he saw the other person being killed. He had said that he saw a person being killed who was a division prisoner. Mr. Koppe wanted to know how he knew the person was a division prisoner. He answered that he noticed this from the look and the clothes he was wearing. The body was half-naked, as “he only wore his pants”. The executioners wore only shorts. Two prisoners were carried at the time. When Mr. Koppe pressed on, Mr. Thol said that he did not understand the question. The short the prisoner was wearing was a military short. He concluded that the person was a prisoner, because “all people at the Re-Education Center were prisoners”. Mr. Koppe said that the jackfruit plantation was around two kilometers away from Au Kanseng. He answered that the security guards were those of Au Kanseng, which, he said, indicated that “there was no doubt that they were Au Kanseng prisoners”. He did not recall the names of the security guards. He recognized their faces as they guarded the compounds. One of the people wore shorts. The other person who was carried was naked. Parts of their bodies were swollen. He saw them when he was taken into the center and shackled. They were housed in a building to the east, but he could see them through the gaps in the walls.

 

Back to the burial of a person

Mr. Koppe inquired whether Tin asked him to bury someone, which he confirmed. He knew that this person had tried to “snuck away” and steal some food, because some villagers told him so. He was detained at Au Kanseng, and when being allowed to work outside the compound, he ran away to find food in a nearby village. They did not see him running away, but when they did the headcount, they searched for him. By noon time, he walked back into the security center and was shot. Mr. Koppe wanted to know why Tin asked him to bury the person, to which he answered that was simply asked to do so. He was not told by Tin why this person was shot. Tin was a security guard. He only knew that Tin asked him to bury the body.

At this  point, the President adjourned the hearing. Mr. Phan Thol’s testimony will continue tomorrow at 9 am, after which 2-TCW-867 will be heard.

 

[1] E3/4845, at 01057867 (EN), 00923036 (FR), 00613037 (KH).

[2] E3/5172, at 00272585 (EN), 00189251 (KH), 00272592 (FR).

[3] Ibid.

[4] E3/5127, at 00272586 (EN), 00189252-53 (KH), 00272593 (FR)

[5] Ibid., 00272587 (EN), 00189253 (KH), 00272594 (FR).

[6] At 00272587 (EN), 00189253-54 (KH), 00272594 (FR).

[7] Ibid.

[8] Ibid, at 00272587 (EN), 00189254 (KH), 00272594-95 (FR).

[9] E3/405, at answer 12.

[10]At 00272585 (EN), 00189252 (KH), 00272593 (FR).

[11] At 00272586 (EN), 00189253 (KH), 00272594 (FR).

[12] E3/5172, at 00272588 (EN), 00189255 (KH), 00272595 (FR).

[13] E3/9357, at answer 4.

[14] E3/240, at 00001266-67 (KH), 00282550-51 (FR), 00897667-68 (EN).

[15] At 00189254 (KH), 00272587 (EN), 00272595 (FR).